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After reading this article: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice

I was considering getting some dice with non-rounded edges, but I'm not seeing many options. As I play Orks, I need a fair number of dice and don't want to pay the casino prices (~$15/5) linked in the article. Does anyone know a good alternative?

The issue is not so much with the rounded edges, it is with indented pips. Ideally they should be silk screened pips like with casino dice.

Almost all bulk dice that are inexpensive have indented pips and round edges, because as that article states they get a 33% increase in product from doing that.

Ebay has casino dice, but usually sold in sets of 5 and not nearly as cheap as 36 for $7.

Chessex have become the norm, so no one would hold it against you if you use them. I do understand the urge to have a truly balanced set of dice, but I"m not paying $70+ for a set of 30 dice.

Same here. Ive known about the problem with cheap dice for awhile now. And like others I cant see spending so much money on just dice. I too play Orks, and Ive seen assaults hit the 70s. Thats ALOT of cash for dice to roll. Someday, gradually maybe, but even still Im not so sure

Also casino dice would be perfect, as they are machined, not poured into molds and all that crap. They have VERY strict guide lines for how they are made. Where as normal "crap" dice as I often call them, are just made with the "how many can we make in an hour" method

Just about everyone has read that article at this point, and when I'm playing in a tournament I usually see 1 or 2 people with piles of casino dice. Not coincidentally those players also end up being the players that the tournament judges are called to watch while they play...

Using casino dice is fine, but it does make you appear to be a WAAC gamer, and it can set a bad mood for the entire game.

THAT is why I just use normal GW/Chessux dice. the statistical advantage of using well-made dice is not worth it over the loss of fun from playing a game where the opponent acts like he has a stick shoved somewhere inappropriate.

See Id actually disagree a bit with you. Using casino dice, that roll the way they are "suppose" to doesnt make someone a WAAC gamer. WAAC gamers, are the ones that say "WAIT! I need my blue die for this INV save" and then they make the save. Because that dice is made unbalanced, and said player has figured out that it rolls 6s more then anything else.

Hell Im an abuser of that, well my group is. We roll our LD tests with my GW BIG GUN DICE!!!! because those are so hirrbly made, they roll 1s 2s like you wouldnt believe. Ive passed probably 80-90% of my Ork LD tests using those.

I've seen that article, too, and read the arguments for and against its validity, etc...

Here is something I have been wondering about the so-called "casino dice" however. If you're rolling a large dice, with square edges to boot, and you just "drop" it onto the table- isn't there a greater chance of its' outcome not being truly random?

It bothers me when people use really, really large dice, and don't roll them adequately. In a casino, playing (what's it called? craps?) you have to roll them across a long table, past a line, right? So that makes the result random.

However, if you're using large, squared off dice, and just basically shaking them slightly and then dropping them from just above the playing surface- I wonder if they're not really being randomized?

Indeed with casino dice, you do have to roll them farther then tiny rounded dice. And casino dice arnt huge, GW BIG GUN DICE are harge, and they suck at rolling, and are horribly off balanced, hence the many 1s I roll.
The thing is, when it comes to using casino dice, you can guarantee that if read up on how they are used in casinos, that is the BEST way for random dice rolling. Simply because a casino is all about making money not losing money. Dropping them from chest height onto the table wont make them very random. Infact that is considered cheating, because the dice are flat, and dont bounce much. So if you have a bunch of 6s facing up, and drop them flat, youll get a bunch of 6s. Thats why you must roll the dice.
But using rounded dice, that are made poorly, it doesnt matter how you roll,drop,toss them, they will flop to where the heavier side is down, and the lighter side is up.

I bought a set of about 50 square edged dice from eBay a while ago for around 10 bucks. Scour eBay and you can find them pretty well.

Casino dice pips are made from resin with the same density as the main part of the dice. They are not painted or silk screened on anymore.

They are .0001 of an inch accurate.

What makes rolling average a WAAC activity?

I use casino dice because I am tierd of unbalanced and unfair dice. Mass produced dice do not give you true averages.

On rolling ... Anyone who drops or slides dice needs to be slapped. Cassino dice with straight edges can be rolled just like any other dice. I dare anyone to take a handfull of 10 dice and try to skew the result without being obvious about it.

I agree, that using casino dice shouldn't really draw any attention.

Using separate dice for LD rolls etc is unacceptable and I wouldn't allow it. If you wanna roll your special blue dice, then EVERY roll is gonna be made with em.

A legal craps roll requires the dice to hit a wall of the table at least once, and the wall has all those pyramid bumps on them to alter the trajectory in a more random fashion. The idea isn't to make it "harder" to win, it is to balance out the way the game is meant to work.

A good way to ensure decent rolling technique is to use a dice tower. Most have a 45 degree slope that the dice bounce off of before landing in the tray at the bottom, of course that doesn't mean that it is fool proof.

Also, it's really only single or small dice count rolls that you have to watch for, as it's damn near impossible to cheat roll 15 dice at a time.

KingCracker wrote:(snip) Indeed with casino dice, you do have to roll them farther then tiny rounded dice... (snip)

(snip) The thing is, when it comes to using casino dice, you can guarantee that if read up on how they are used in casinos, that is the BEST way for random dice rolling. Simply because a casino is all about making money not losing money. Dropping them from chest height onto the table wont make them very random. Infact that is considered cheating, because the dice are flat, and dont bounce much. So if you have a bunch of 6s facing up, and drop them flat, youll get a bunch of 6s. Thats why you must roll the dice... (snip)

It's probably a pet peeve of mine, but I see a lot of people at the store here who claim they don't like how the small rounded off dice roll. So they bring in a large amount of "cheap" dice that supposedly roll better. But they're just the large, white, squared off edged dice that you see in a lot of board games. They then drop these dice from a few inches above the table, after shaking them slightly.

In my opinion, of course you'll get better results this way, than using small, rounded dice that are harder to handle and "drop" carefully. I think people get away with this because it gets lumped in with the idea of "casino dice" being more random. But used this way, any larger, squared off dice (including casino dice) yield a less random result that the roller can more easily affect, in my opinion.

I think I've been convinced to purchase Casino dice. I'm not much of a rager, but I still get massively irritated at how garbage Chessex dice roll.

I found an Ebay store that sells "Casino Grade" machined dice in foil without serials, brand new 5 for 10 USD. Seems like a worthwhile investment to me, 50 bucks for 25 dice that I can feel confident are rolling random.

The problem with casino dice is they are so HUGE. I played a local guy who used them. He only had like 10 of em, so it would take him forever to get through his roles, and then the whole table would shake from the impact of all the weight of those dice hitting.

I've waivered over the years on the chessex dice. Yes I do believe they are statistically inferior to other dice, and of course professional backgammon dice. But I don't really think they are THAT worse than other dice. I can't justify spending $100.00 on dice. Also if my opponent is happy with chessex dice then his odds are the same as mine so it realy doesn't matter.

GG

Demogerg wrote:Just about everyone has read that article at this point, and when I'm playing in a tournament I usually see 1 or 2 people with piles of casino dice. Not coincidentally those players also end up being the players that the tournament judges are called to watch while they play...

Using casino dice is fine, but it does make you appear to be a WAAC gamer, and it can set a bad mood for the entire game.

THAT is why I just use normal GW/Chessux dice. the statistical advantage of using well-made dice is not worth it over the loss of fun from playing a game where the opponent acts like he has a stick shoved somewhere inappropriate.

I figured I would quote myself in response to the few people who are confused about the WAAC comment...

i did not say it actually makes you a WAAC gamer, I did not say that it is my opinion that it makes you a WAAC gamer, I said it makes [the person using the casino dice] Appear to be a WAAC gamer, and that their opponents will call judges to watch your game, not necesarily that anyone is cheating, or that using casino dice is wrong in any way shape or form.

The point I was trying to get accross is that I dont use casino dice because I dont want to offend in any way the person who I will be playing a game with. I'd rather take the potential change in luck and maybe lose a few games from that than to set one person in a mindset that I am not a fun person to play against.

generalgrog wrote:The problem with casino dice is they are so HUGE. I played a local guy who used them. He only had like 10 of em, so it would take him forever to get through his roles, and then the whole table would shake from the impact of all the weight of those dice hitting.

This. If I could get perfectly-balanced dice in a 36-to-a-brick size, I would. As I can't, I picked up some Chessex square-edged dice, and use a dice tray, in which I bounce my rolls off the rounded, rubber-lined sides. As a bonus, the dice tray helps prevent terrain from consuming my dice.

RiTides - You do not have to roll them farther. This is enforced in casino play because a few people are able to roll 2 dice even a great distance and get the numbers they want. Even they admit that this is near impossible with 3 or more dice.

Hitting the back wall at the casino is done to "ensure" a random roll because of these people. There is absolutly no way to cheat a roll that hits a random surface at a random point.

Lets face it if you see someone rolling from a few inchs off the board dropping the dice ... then yes they are cheating or trying to cheat. If you see someone pick up a handfull of dice and toss them onto the table (I use a leather lined tray with 30 degree slopped edges because I like my $100 set of dice) then you are getting a random result.

Fact of the matter is that dice that have been mass produced with the use of a tumbler do not roll better averages than machined dice with or without the use of a craps table. I would rather have dice that are balanced and truely random than a set that will rolls 6's more often than not.

I think you are mixing up the dice with the roller of the dice ... like Demogerg.

*edit
If you have small hands then I do not recomend standard casino dice, I can roll around 25 - 30 at a time.

aerethan wrote:The issue is not so much with the rounded edges, it is with indented pips. Ideally they should be silk screened pips like with casino dice.

Casino Dice are not silk screen printed, they have pips drilled in and then filled with white resin disks. If you look through a casino die you can see the depth of the pip and judge whether or not the die has been tampered with. Also on the back of the center pip on the 3 side there is a small letter. Either a P (pulson die) or an M (midwestern) these also are used as an anti-cheating mechanism.



Chris,
Occupation Craps dealer.

I don't understand the people who will drop $500+ on an army along with painting/modeling time.

But $50-$70 is too much to insure that you're playing the game correctly and truly random.

Timmah wrote:I don't understand the people who will drop $500+ on an army along with painting/modeling time.

But $50-$70 is too much to insure that you're playing the game correctly and truly random.

If you only have $500 to spend on an army though, you dont want $70 of that being the dice...

Hitting the back wall at the casino is done to "ensure" a random roll because of these people. There is absolutly no way to cheat a roll that hits a random surface at a random point.

I would beg to differ, I have personally seen a player that is able to toss a set of dice over 6 feet and hit a flat surface and ensure on dice always lands on a 6. Yes hitting a wall helps randomize the roll, but hitting a flat wall like the edge of a box can be/is predictable. For this reason casinos use "Gator" lining on the bottom foot of the back wall, and throwing above said foot is frowned upon (if you do it every roll we will pass the dice on you).

So moral of the story... Tossing a couple dice one foot against a cardboard box is not a good way to ensure people don't cheat. If you are really worried about it make sure people don't set dice before they roll.


Chris

"better" rolls is very subjective based on the desired outcome. Rolling 1's 29% of the time is crap for combat but excellent for Ld.

I would also agree that if someone were to make a 12mm set of 36 machined dice that are still casino grade I would likely buy them provided they were affordable.

I can even see the ad campaign against chessex with such a set of dice, provided they did enough science to back up their proof.

Game Science produces squared off dice. If you watch the YouTube video, he has some interesting stuff to say including about Casino dice.

http://www.gamescience.com/

why not try the numeral dice from chessex.

Why not try the numeral dice from chessex?

A valid suggestion but I'm rather annoyed that Chessex would knowingly put out such an inferior product (if this article is to be believed).

I just have to say, the Article picture made me laugh.

Gwar! wrote:I just have to say, the Article picture made me laugh.

what are the odds of all the dice AND his finger landing on 1!!

Clthomps - I said a craps table at a casino, are they not all pyramid surfaced now?

As far as the money issue goes I have plenty of money to throw around, so I buy good dice.

No that are not all pyramid (Gator) covered. The top foot is a flat surface, and the entire side edge is a mirror so that the dealers can see behind peoples hands.

The biggest randomizer seems to be a quarter inch rubber mat that covers the slate. The problem is a lot of players will boycott tables with this type of mat, so hight stakes games are still played on slate.


Chris

Timmah wrote:I don't understand the people who will drop $500+ on an army along with painting/modeling time.

But $50-$70 is too much to insure that you're playing the game correctly and truly random.

Because they don't give a if its statistically accurate because to them its just a game.

Same for any other game like baseball, football, or basketball. Some people just take it a little more seriously than others. Some people play on the carport or in the backyard, others join teams. With that you have the cost of buying gear for your level of play.