Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For ease of reference, I will quote the relevant portion of the Mob Rule here;

"Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 models or more, it has the Fearless special rule."

I was playing a game recently when it was forcibly brought to my attention that I interpret the Mob Rule differently from some other players. This situation was this;

A mob of Shoota Boyz had assaulted a large group of Hormagaunts. When combat was resolved, the Orks were reduced to 8 models and had lost combat by 4. I thus need to take a Leadership check at -4.

My interpretation of the Mob Rule is thus; The Mob Rule allows you to substitute your Ld value with the number of Orks in the mob. It does not actually say that your Leadership EQUALS the number of orks in the mob; rather, you disregard Leadership entirely and instead test against the number of Orks in the mob. Thus, combat resolution in the case above should ahve gone like this;

Subtract 4 from Leadership of 7, getting a total of 3.
Realize that 8 (the number of Orks in the mob) is greater than 3 (Current Leadership)
Substitute 8 for your current Leadership, and take a Leadership test against 8.

My opponent objected, on the grounds that I needed to apply combat resolution modifiers to the number of Orks in my mob! His argument was that by SUBSTITUTE, in the rule quoted above, GW meant SET EQUAL TO. Under this system, I would change my Leadership to 8 (the number of Orks in the mob), and then subtract 4 from that number, testing against a value of 4.

Who is correct, in this situation? In addition, how would you play it?

The way it is played around here is the Ld change is as if you changed the Ld stat on the mob-- i.e., if there's more than 7, you use mob size.

Since you are using the mob size as your leadership value (i.e., as a replacement for your current Ld value) it is still modified by combat resolution, Psyker Battle Squads, etc...

The basis for this is the mob size is substituted for the normal Ld value. That is, the value before modifiers. So, sure, your Ld becomes 8 for mob size, but then it is modified down by combat res.

Fair enough. I interpret "normal Leadership value" simply to mean "value normally used for Leadership", ie whatever your Leadership happens to be at the moment.

This has never been a problem before, so i was somewhat taken aback to have to argue about it today; for instance, to take an example from your post, I have previously played games in which my opponent accepted that a PBS was basically ineffective against a 10-strong Ork squad, because they could still test against 10 regardless of what the PBS reduced their Leadership to.

BeRzErKeR wrote:"Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value.

"Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value."

So the Orks basically swap their leadership for a number under the "LD" characterisic equal to the number of Orks in the mob. Now the rules call for a test against LD. You look under LD, and there's a value equal to the number of Oks in the mob. "OK" you say, and go to roll. But wait! Any value under LD is modified by -x! What value is under LD? Doesn't matter, subtract x, then roll.

Orks do not get an 'unmodified' leadership via mob rule as you suggest. Your opponent was right.

Swap size for normal leadership, Apply modifiers, make roll.

Key words are "Normal Leadership". Their LD value with the -4 applied is not their normal leadership. Their LD value of 7 is their normal LD, so you can only swap the 7 for the 8, not the 7-4 for 8.

Yeah the modifiers apply.

The modifiers apply.

The modifiers apply.

The modifiers apply.

Hmm, alright. That'll necessitate some adjustment of my play style. It's weird that no-one ever called me on it before, though.

The modifiers apply.

Gwar! wrote:The modifiers apply.

Klawz wrote:The modifiers apply.

Bla_Ze wrote:The modifiers apply.

Twalks wrote:The modifiers apply.

indeed

General_Chaos wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The modifiers apply.

Klawz wrote:The modifiers apply.

Bla_Ze wrote:The modifiers apply.

Twalks wrote:The modifiers apply.

indeed

untz untz the modifiers apply untz untz the modifiers apply untz untz told you this a week ago in another YMDC thread untz untz

Might be going out on a limb here but I think The modifiers apply.

General_Chaos wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The modifiers apply.

Klawz wrote:The modifiers apply.

Bla_Ze wrote:The modifiers apply.

Twalks wrote:The modifiers apply.

indeed

Love the orks, and agree with the above. The modifers do apply! Sorry bud.

Tac

Yes the modifiers apply so just bring more cowbell...err....boys for the mob. :3

the modifiers apply.

The modifiers don't apply.





No, wait a minute - actually they do.

BeRzErKeR wrote: a PBS was basically ineffective against a 10-strong Ork squad

In the words of Gary Oldman as Jean Baptiste Emanuel Zorg, "Oh father, you're so wrong. Let me explain."

Just because their fearless does not make the PBS ineffective. A couple of examples:

Hit the Ork Mob of 12 boyz with Weaken Resolve. Drop their leadership to 3 (9 psykers in the PBS) - because they can choose to replace their normal leadership. Their leadership is still affected by the PBS. It takes their normal leadership of 12 (and Fearless) and drops it by 9. Kill 3 of them with other shooting. Voila, a broken unit of Boyz. Next turn, do the same thing, but pin them.

Callidus: Drop the Boyz leadership to 3, hit them with the neural shredder. They lose over 25%, and their leadership is modified, so they break (or should, anyway). Then, you assault them. If they cannot regroup, they're destroyed.

And, if you don't feel like doing either one of those, you can always hit them with a Str 9 large blast. Not quite "basically ineffective".

PBS+neural shredder is outright mean against packed in squads of nobs.

I believe the term "Why take 12 boyz when a mob can take 30?" comes into play. Now times that by 6 . . . who cares how many templates you've got . . . those boyz are fearless =]

Who cares about some more saves in combat when it's only the Nob that makes much difference =p

And thus the "take a unit and multiply" philosophy takes presidence *evils* Why does this plan always seem to work? Whatever happened to diverse armies? lol

Oshova

Oshova wrote:I believe the term "Why take 12 boyz when a mob can take 30?"

Because 30 boyz can't rush 40" in 2 Turns.

True . . . It's always the transports that slip my mind . . . Call it even, 3 squads of 30, 3 squads of 12? . . . No wait that's orks working in waves . . . and therefore using intelligence . . . let's just go with 6 squads of 12 going as fast as possible =p

Oshova

Since the question has been answered (repeatedly) and we seem to be slipping over into a tactics discussion, I think we're done here.