Competitive Imperial Gaurd Versus Competitive Tyranids, How does Tyranids survive?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Mahu**

This was a point brought up by Shep, I quote:

The internet seems ready to move on to blood angels, and no one has found anything that can step to IG or space wolves... I think that I'm ready to call this codex "tourney underpowered". I'll be making some fun planetstrike/apocalypse/battle mission lists for casual play, and I'll be checking the boards for any revelations... but the initial reaction everyone had at the massive cost hike of each MC was pretty accurate... they cost too much and don't do enough, period.

A piece of advice to any game designer. NEVER, EVER design a "gunline" type army. I know people want to play with that style. I say this as an avid imperial guard player and former cygnar player. The game breaks down, you lose all of the middle ground, and you have no room to make any 'hybrid' armies. Either the gunline wins in the first turn against the all-assault army, or loses in the next turn. Any army that tries to be half-assault half-shooting is hopelessly outclassed in shooting and assault by the paper-rock-scissors other lists. Any point spent on a CC upgrade against an IG gunline is a wasted point, and since all nid MCs are basically burdened with built-in CC upgrades, they are all massively overcosted.

At this point, I'd gladly take a 'mycetic spore assault' rule to get my zoanthropes shooting on turn one, or to get carnifex set up and ready to charge on turn two if people reserve against me. That is a big missed opportunity... along with pheromone trail not working when off-table... because that makes sense

Lets all pray that librarian furioso dreads start just shredding mech gunlines with impunity using shockwave and that the storm harbingers armor 13 starts making the autocannon and missile launcher relics of the old days.... even owning thousands of dollars of IG, I am begging someone at GW to wreck my gunline list with a popular codex, one that isn't just another gunline. If we can just get IG and space marines/wolves to actually spend a reasonable amount of points for effective shooting, rather than 10 point autocannons/MLs then maybe that can open up some breathing room for a ground and pound nid army.

Until then, see you in planetstrike...

you know... they are getting much better at it... When an author has access to the design crutch known as the meltagun, they really can't break it. When armies don't have access to it, then they have to work a bit harder. I know its not easy, but look at these two catagories of armies and notice what each of them have...

THE GOOD
space wolves
imperial guard
space marines

THE LESS GOOD
orks
demons
tyranids

If you didn't notice, those are the last 6 books to come out. At first glance it may seem like dedicated transports might be the common theme, but thats not true, both nids and orks have them. The only pure difference is the lack of meltaguns in multiple FOC slots.

It doesn't help that in the first three armies, you can build for a BLISTERING turn 1 shooting phase, but if the other guys could answer that back with definitive "go to sleep" style tank kill, then we'd have a game. But they can't. they peck at armor, and the top three armies don't peck they smash.

I have no question that blood angels will be just fine in 5th edition. I've already seen the perdition pistols and meltaguns in every slot. Does it really matter who is holding it?

I am not trying to call Shep out, I am just relaying the excellent points he has made.

Tyranids have problems with IG. It is something that anybody who has done a lot of playtesting is realizing.

How do we as Tyranid players handle a good IG gun line, or is our codex hopelessly under powered. For simplicity sake, let's assume that everybody is playing under the Adepticon rulings on all things Tyranids and IG.

**willydstyle**

The funny thing is that Shep kind of contradicts himself: SW are CC capable, but also have better shooting than Space Marines (or at least more cost-efficient) making them exactly the kind of hybrid army that he says can't work.

Overall though, I think he is right. Tyranids also don't have dedicated transports. Even though spore pods can get guys where they need to get going, they don't serve the primary function of dedicated transports in most lists: protecting the troops on the objectives.

**CaptKaruthors**

I think tyranids haven't found the magic bullet for IG, because I think that the focus has been from the angle of making tyranids be shooty. Tyranids have never been a shooting army. They are an assault army. I think support shooting is needed, but I think cramming a truckload of assault units up in the opponents stink is the key for victory for bugs.

**kadun**

CaptKaruthors wrote:I think tyranids haven't found the magic bullet for IG, because I think that the focus has been from the angle of making tyranids be shooty. Tyranids have never been a shooting army. They are an assault army. I think support shooting is needed, but I think cramming a truckload of assault units up in the opponents stink is the key for victory for bugs.

The problem is, in this edition, you need to be able to disembark your opponent in the shooting phase and not the assault phase. If all you can do is disembark them in the assault phase, that unit still gets a whole turn to respond to you at point blank range.

So, for 'nids, the question is, "How much shooting can I fit in while still retaining a dominant assault element?" I'm not a 'nid player so I don't know the answer to that.

**winterman**

I have a question to those that use these well tooled IG lists -- what actually does give it a run for its money (besides losing first turn). Just curious to be honest.

EDIT -- meant used the lists.

**CaptKaruthors**

@Winterman: Anything that can swamp your lines from the word go. The mission for the IG then becomes a breakout mission first and everything else is secondary.

The problem is, in this edition, you need to be able to disembark your opponent in the shooting phase and not the assault phase. If all you can do is disembark them in the assault phase, that unit still gets a whole turn to respond to you at point blank range.

Sort of. In most cases, the IG only have one turn to repel it all. If they can't they lose.

**Therion**

willydstyle wrote:The funny thing is that Shep kind of contradicts himself: SW are CC capable, but also have better shooting than Space Marines (or at least more cost-efficient) making them exactly the kind of hybrid army that he says can't work.

Overall though, I think he is right. Tyranids also don't have dedicated transports. Even though spore pods can get guys where they need to get going, they don't serve the primary function of dedicated transports in most lists: protecting the troops on the objectives.

I guess when he talks about hybrid lists not working he's talking about Tyranids. SW on the other hand are a whole different animal. 15 missile launchers and 6 lascannons and a bunch of meltas later you still have room for 10 Thunderwolves. If the BA will be capable of doing lots of fast DS into assault or outflank into assault moves I'm pretty sure those (counter) assault elements in the SW list will be very necessary too.

**Volkov**

I have a question to those that use these well tooled IG lists -- what actually does give it a run for its money (besides losing first turn). Just curious to be honest.

EDIT -- meant used the lists.

Deep Strikers and units that walk on your board edge like Snikrot and space wolf scouts. Mystics can really alleviate the first problem though...

I also play tyranids and I think it is more a problem of the nid codex being garbage. 5th edition is the edition of vehicles, and the designers didn't give the nids enough to deal with it

**Therion**

Volkov wrote:Deep Strikers and units that walk on your board edge like Snikrot and space wolf scouts..

Are Wolf Scouts really that feared? They get only one meltagun, and get quite expensive per model if given melta bombs.

**Volkov**

Are Wolf Scouts really that feared? They get only one meltagun, and get quite expensive per model if given melta bombs.

If you have a gun line parking lot...melta bombs are the cheapest investment you will ever make

**kadun**

CaptKaruthors wrote:@Winterman: Anything that can swamp your lines from the word go. The mission for the IG then becomes a breakout mission first and everything else is secondary.

The problem is, in this edition, you need to be able to disembark your opponent in the shooting phase and not the assault phase. If all you can do is disembark them in the assault phase, that unit still gets a whole turn to respond to you at point blank range.

Sort of. In most cases, the IG only have one turn to repel it all. If they can't they lose.

Well the scenario usually goes something like, IG gets 1-2 turns to shoot the assault army. Whatever is left of the assault army hits and (if the IG player didn't simply allow all his transports/vehicles get hit at the same time) some of the vehicles will die in the assault phase. Now the IG player has a bunch of BS4 meltaguns and maybe a tarpit standing around along with the next line of vehicles.

**CaptKaruthors**

Now the IG player has a bunch of BS4 meltaguns and maybe a tarpit standing around along with the next line of vehicles.

With the right bug units I don't see many 10 man squads being tarpits. If you are playing a gunline tank IG army, your tarpit units will be limited. I should know, I play a tank gunline style IG list. At best you have one.

**Phish Skills**

People are saying that the new tyranid book is underpowered but i have to disagree, i dont think it is, i think its balanced, the only thing thats not so good is the inability to upgrade normal units armour saves and overpriced fexs.

I just think that some of the new books like the SW codex is a bit overpowered.

Dealing with an IG gunline isn't easy, but big units of combat warrior with Rending claws are nice. Gargoyles are also very good since they can be in broods of up to 30 and move up to 24" and DS, so swamping the IG lines with large broods of hormagaunts and gargoyles, along with a couple powerful warrior broods and maybe some lictors to take out their weaker vehicles, or a tyrannofex if you can afford it points wise.

**Kevin Nash**

kadun wrote:
CaptKaruthors wrote:I think tyranids haven't found the magic bullet for IG, because I think that the focus has been from the angle of making tyranids be shooty. Tyranids have never been a shooting army. They are an assault army. I think support shooting is needed, but I think cramming a truckload of assault units up in the opponents stink is the key for victory for bugs.

The problem is, in this edition, you need to be able to disembark your opponent in the shooting phase and not the assault phase. If all you can do is disembark them in the assault phase, that unit still gets a whole turn to respond to you at point blank range.

So, for 'nids, the question is, "How much shooting can I fit in while still retaining a dominant assault element?" I'm not a 'nid player so I don't know the answer to that.

Orks that don't bother with fire support have a similar issue. You run into a wall of rhinos/chimeras, the contents spill out and then you eat meltagun/lasgun/template fire at point blank range without a consolidate.

Short of highly resilient units like Nob Bikers or Bloodcrushers you don't last very long. This is usually ok if you have proper fire support blowing up their dedicated transports prior to your assault units getting there. Orks can leverage this with Lootas and Kannons, but IG can often demoralize even that with their own turn 1 shooting. Nids have even less fire support than orks and aren't really all that much more resilient. Individual models might be, but as a whole the army really isn't. A 6 wound MC isn't really any more resilient than a mob of boyz.

So are T-Fexes or VC fire or Hive Guard enough? Shep's testing suggests that it isn't. The alternative is a full reserve list, which has a number of drawbacks, like setting yourself up for poor reserve rolls. Another issue that I hope they consider changing in the next edition is the lack of ability to assault following a deep strike. This would really shake up gun-line lists that aren't honest enough to have counter-assault. But unfortunately as it stands Trygons and Mawlocs show up and usually eat a bunch of melta fire before they can really do major damage.

**kadun**

- Edit - Never mind, don't want to go after the red herring.