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Grand Master with 4 GK Retinue----
----Extra Power Weapon on the Grand Master for 5 attacks

Charging from Raider

Grey Knights
Kill around 6ish marines

Grand Master
Kills around 3.5ish marines

Total 10ish wounds at Ini 4


Or....

Grand Master
5 Thunder Terms

Charging from Raider

Grand Master
Kills 2ish marines (Can't afford Power Weapon now)

Then Marines go

Then Thunder Terms kill around 6ish

8ish total wounds provided I don't lose anything from the ini 4 Marines attack




Pros for GK;
Retinue rules, so Chapter master can zap anything in the game
Does more wounds at ini
Shrouding *might* come into play late game

Pros for Thunder Terms;
5 models instead of 4 (GK more expensive)
Lots of Hammers, dreads won't scare me
Extremely survivable (3++ compared to 5++)




Kind of a thought experiment...any takers?

Well there is a big Con with GKGM w/ TH/SS termies:
GKGM loses fearless.
TH/SS can't use ATSKNF, Nor can they use Combat Tactics.
So lose/lose there for some special rules.

I think I would be more scared of the TH/SS...
Wounding my bikers on 2's is much better than just 3's

Sanctjud wrote:Well there is a big Con with GKGM w/ TH/SS termies:
GKGM loses fearless.
TH/SS can't use ATSKNF, Nor can they use Combat Tactics.
So lose/lose there for some special rules.

I think I would be more scared of the TH/SS...
Wounding my bikers on 2's is much better than just 3's

Yeah, TH/SS are Nob killers (If that's what you are eluding to).

I'm not sure I follow on TH/SS losing ATSKNF (Khan is in my army, so Combat Tactics is already lost).

Grey Knight Terminators can swap their NF weapons for a thunder hammer if they choose, so why use Space Marine termies at all?

whitedragon wrote:Grey Knight Terminators can swap their NF weapons for a thunder hammer if they choose, so why use Space Marine termies at all?

The 3++ vs. 5++.

@ sancjud: why do you say the GKGM loses fearlessness ALL Grey Knights are totally fearless(its one of the benifits of being awsome shiny silver space marines with super powers)

Grey Knights don't have ATSKNF or combat tactics, nor do we need them.

GK terminators have the same number of attacks whether they have NFWs or Thunder hammers(true grit only applies to GKs in power armor)

@ ageofegos: i am not sure if the grand master should take an additional weapon. he would lose his storm bolter and why take a power weapon when you could take a psycannon

Grey Knights are a shooting army(read the article section on dakka) i play just like that article and havn't lost a game since i changed tactics.

Shrouding is somthing to base our whole stratedgy around. its somthing that works against any enemy and the average on 3D6 times 3 is 30" so we can use psycannons, lascannons, and heavy bolters at maximum range while the enemies long range shooting is totally nerfed.

Don't belive me, try it out.

The normal GK termies are more scarier IMO. Str6 will wound most infantry models on a 2+ already, Nobs are T4 IIRC so will be wounded on 2+ not 3+ like you say and are power weapons coming from the Terminators.

There is a FAQ saying you can use newer rules (like the 3+ invuln SS) as long as its within reason and you inform your opponent who can refuse if he dosn't think its within reason. He can't refuse just because he wants to be a jerk and kill your termies easier.

@AgeofEgos:
I had meant NFW vs. Bikers = wounding on 3's.
So then I said TH (str 8) would be more brutal.
I had meant SMurf bikers, not nobs, but Str 8 is still brutal.

I don't see the GKGM gaining ATSKNF...so how can they all use it if the GKGM joining them doesn't have it? I don't remember ATSKNF being granted on any IC just joining SM's.

Khan + GKGM + Assault termies...sounds expensive But that comes with Deathstars.

@Grey Templar:
Sorry, I had meant GKT w/ The Better TH/SS, as in the SMurf Assault Termies, not the GKT TH/SS, that's sad panda bear.
I do sound like I'm talking about GKT w/ TH/SS, but that is not the intension.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

He can't refuse just because he wants to be a jerk and kill your termies easier.

Well, he can... that's how herbed up the FAQ's stance is on that subject.

Just don't play TFG Easy.

Grey Templar wrote:@ sancjud: why do you say the GKGM loses fearlessness ALL Grey Knights are totally fearless(its one of the benifits of being awsome shiny silver space marines with super powers)

Grey Knights don't have ATSKNF or combat tactics, nor do we need them.

GK terminators have the same number of attacks whether they have NFWs or Thunder hammers(true grit only applies to GKs in power armor)

@ ageofegos: i am not sure if the grand master should take an additional weapon. he would lose his storm bolter and why take a power weapon when you could take a psycannon

Grey Knights are a shooting army(read the article section on dakka) i play just like that article and havn't lost a game since i changed tactics.

Shrouding is somthing to base our whole stratedgy around. its somthing that works against any enemy and the average on 3D6 times 3 is 30" so we can use psycannons, lascannons, and heavy bolters at maximum range while the enemies long range shooting is totally nerfed.

Don't belive me, try it out.

The normal GK termies are more scarier IMO. Str6 will wound most infantry models on a 2+ already, Nobs are T4 IIRC so will be wounded on 2+ not 3+ like you say and are power weapons coming from the Terminators.

There is a FAQ saying you can use newer rules (like the 3+ invuln SS) as long as its within reason and you inform your opponent who can refuse if he dosn't think its within reason. He can't refuse just because he wants to be a jerk and kill your termies easier.

Psycannon is 30 though, dunno. I'll have to shave points elsewhere to sneak that in...

What FAQ are you referencing in regards to the 3++ Stormshield?

the GKGM is Fearless, he grants any squad he joins fearless. they won't need ATSKNF

the Nob bikers and SM bikers will have the same toughness, 5. i see what you mean about wounding on 3s, but that is still pretty Awsome. i wouldn't take TH/SSs just so i would wound on 2s instead of 3s


Tournements actually will allow the 3++ save for GK termies, because they allow it for Black Templars they can't deny GKs. anyone who won't allow you the 3++ probably is such a poor player that he needs advantages against GKs. i certantly won't play TFG

@Grey Templar:

the GKGM is Fearless, he grants any squad he joins fearless. they won't need ATSKNF

You are very incorrect sir, please re-read the fearless rules in the main rulebook.
GKGM don't have any special rules of giving fearless to the squad he joines either.

No beans.

Grey Templar wrote:the GKGM is Fearless, he grants any squad he joins fearless. they won't need ATSKNF

the Nob bikers and SM bikers will have the same toughness, 5. i see what you mean about wounding on 3s, but that is still pretty Awsome. i wouldn't take TH/SSs just so i would wound on 2s instead of 3s


Tournements actually will allow the 3++ save for GK termies, because they allow it for Black Templars they can't deny GKs. anyone who won't allow you the 3++ probably is such a poor player that he needs advantages against GKs. i certantly won't play TFG

Is that something specific to the Daemonhunters dex? Because the Fearless Uni. states "However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless, he loses this special rule" pg. 75 of main rule book.

Str. 8 not only wounds Nobz on 2s but also Instant Deaths them, which prevents wound allocation tricks (This is rather huge).


I'm fairly certain Adepticon makes you follow the older codex rules for Storm Shields. I thought there was an official GW ruling on this as well but can't seem to find it.

I apologize for calling it a FAQ

I and several other people have called GW with this question and for once have gotten a consistant answer. armies with the old SS rules may replace it with the new SS rules as long as the opponent is informed. they didn't say the opponent had to actually agree.

i don't use TH/SS on my GKs anyway so haven't tested this. but the black templar players are doing it so i don't see why not.

I guess i got the rules for fearless wrong, that would mean he follows ATSKNF as the unit has it. the unit would fall back with the GM inside as normal.

I don't think both rules will be cancelled out, that would be stupid so don't even suggest that

@Grey Templar:

I and several other people have called GW with this question and for once have gotten a consistant answer.

Why does that matter? They are no different than anyone else in the YMTC...

the GKGM is Fearless, he grants any squad he joins fearless.

He loses it. P.75 BBB

We already admonished my blatent wrongness on that rule

Thunder Termies all the way!

AoE,

I don't remember if the GKT's can also get Storm Shields. If they do, then it's 4++, not 5++. Also don't forget that GKT's are WS5 to the marines WS4, and fearless.

Grey Templar wrote:
I guess i got the rules for fearless wrong, that would mean he follows ATSKNF as the unit has it. the unit would fall back with the GM inside as normal.

I'm pretty sure that since the GKGM does not have ATSKNF The squad would have to rally as normal and not auto rally as they would without the attached IC. Its a rule that would affect every model in the squad and while the terminators would be able to auto rally the GKGM (who is no longer fearless) would not and would keep running unless his LD test was passed. Its not like the squad is going to just stop while he keeps going. This would also make them vulnerable to being sweeped and not being able to rally if under half strength.
The only place that could allow for it to work is that it makes a mention of Servitors being subject to ATSKNF as long as 1 marine is alive.

On topic. While I like the basic TH/SS termies for their durability and ability to ID t4, I would probably go with the all GK squad as I really like the retinue rules and s6 power weapons that go at initiative are pretty nice. Keep in mind if you need to the retinue rules allow the GKGM to eat a wound that could reduce the squad number.

Cheers,
~Volkan

I'd just like to say that at their current points cost, GKTs with the newer storm shield rules would be bloody BROKEN. I have a friend who plays Guard with Inquisition allies. I've played against his GKTs three times, and every single time they tear the guts out of any unit they touch.

I would let someone running a GK army use the new storm shield rules if and when they agreed to pay 60 points for each GKT they took.

The problem, at least as I see it, with allowing GKT to use 'modern' Storm Shields is that by rights you should then change some of the other wargear that works differently from the newer codexes too. Such as the Grand Masters force weapon, or the DH psychic hood. Do you then change smoke launchers to 4+ cover saves? Change the Extra Armour upgrade to reflect its current points cost in the newer codexes? It's a slippery slope.

Units in the Daemonhunter codex were given their respective points cost for a reason; making the units considerably better without changing their points cost, and then rationalising the change by saying "He can't refuse just because he wants to be a jerk and kill your termies easier", isn't keeping things balanced. I want my Deathwing to have new fancy 3++ saves too, but you gotta take the good with the bad.

Just to chime in on the NFW vs. Thunderhammer debate, in my opinion the NFW wins everytime. As a predominantly SM player I would kill to have Terminators with Relic Blades!

Let's keep this discussion on Tactics. Other points should be brought up in You Make Da Call or Proposed Rules.

I agree: NFW wins due to inititive and the fact it already wounds most units on 2+ anyway making the thunder hammers more of a liability then a bonus. against a heavy mechanized list it changes, but NFWs can penetrate many vehicles too

Grey Templar wrote:I agree: NFW wins due to inititive and the fact it already wounds most units on 2+ anyway making the thunder hammers more of a liability then a bonus. against a heavy mechanized list it changes, but NFWs can penetrate many vehicles too

A couple thunderhammers (depending on the size of the unit) allow the GKT's to threaten a much wider range of targets. A quick list off the top of my head includes:

Dreads
Ironclads
Defilers
Soul Grinders
Nob Bikers

And allow you to ID all manner of pesky T4 multi-wound models. The WS5 goes a long way towards making the GKT's hit better.

that is the advantage of the TH

i would run maybe one or two against an armored list, but then and only then

i usually take Hammerhand for vehicles anyway as its the only GK psychic power that is still basically useful besides Holocoust

against defilers/soulgrinders the GOTN + Hammerhand is a pretty deadly combo

Well, keep in mind this is an allied unit in my army...so I have other answers (Like 7 meltas, 4 of which are fast...and + 5 las cannons) for armor. So I'm not concerned with Dreads...and I'll take that off my pros/cons.

However, what I am concerned with is hidden powerfists. The GKs won't likely wipe a tough unit with PF...and 2 attacks usually = 1 wound. TH = 66% ok, GK = 33% ok.

However, the GKs can shoot, so again the Pros/Cons;


Pros for GK;
Retinue rules, so Chapter master can zap anything in the game
Does more wounds at Ini 4
Shrouding *might* come into play late game
Stormbolters for shooting/charge in
Gives me 15 or so points to play with as compared to 5 Thunder Terms

Pros for Thunder Terms;
5 models instead of 4 (GK more expensive)
Extremely survivable (3++ compared to 5++)


I'm really starting to lean towards the GKs. Played a game today with the Thunder Terms/GK Grand Master..and he tore up pretty well. Thunder Terms just really didn't die much. Any other thoughts.....?

have you read the Dakka tactics article on grey knights?

i used to play grey knights as the Close combat monsters they appear to be, but i lost about half my games. now i play them as the article recomends, as a shooting army with lots of psycannons. haven't lost a game since.


Hidden powerfists aren't a concern with me. they will only dish out 2 attacks at the most, and with our WS5 we can breath easier. If the unit is whittled down to a managable size from our shooting you might be able to kill the entire unit before the PF gets to swing.

GK termies have 2 attacks each + grand masters 3. figure 4 termies + GMs attacks = 11 attacks with 3 having the potential for ID. against a squad of 5 basic SM terminators. 2 power attacks and 8 PF attacks.

Grey Knights go at the same time as the Term sergeant. 11 NFW attacks, WS5 vs WS4=3+ to hit= 7.5 hits with 2 being ID capable(dosn't affect normal termies but would affect MCs) 5.5 wound with 2.5 being saved leaving 3 dead terminators. 2 Power weapon attacks from terminator sergeant, WS4 vs WS5=4+ to hit=1 hit wounds on 4+ leaving .5 wounds. 1/3 are saved by Invuln leaving 1/6th dead GK termnator. the Space marine player take on of his 3 dead termies on the sergeant so he will get his PF attacks. 4 attacks at WS4 vs WS5=2 hits. 1.85 wound. 1/3 are saved leaving .61605 dead GKs. combining the Sergeants attacks + this one leaves around 1 dead GK.

the normal SM terminators will have lost combat by 2 points and will have a leadership test of 7 to pass. they will get away if failed, maybe(the Deamonhunter codex says models in terminator armor may not advance after winning combat, is Advance the same as Sweeping advance? if not GK terminators could possibly perform a sweeping advance, but i doubt it. this might be a YMTC question )

If you are mostly concerned about nob bikers then thunderhammers are the best bet. Remember the nobz will most likely háve a Waaagh banner so you are hitting them on 4+ not 3+. If you can get the GKGM in b2b with the warboss mostly likely you'll NFW him dead.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you are mostly concerned about nob bikers then thunderhammers are the best bet. Remember the nobz will most likely háve a Waaagh banner so you are hitting them on 4+ not 3+. If you can get the GKGM in b2b with the warboss mostly likely you'll NFW him dead.

G

Yeah TH/SS might be the entire reason the meta has shifted from Nob Bikers? Outside of Bikers though, I would really like to hear your thoughts GBF. I know you have a great deal of tournament experience, what do you think?


4 GK w/ GrandMaster---Retinue (Points left over)

5 TH/SS w/ GrandMaster (No points left over)

I think the GKGM with TH/SS termies is the better unit since the thunderhammers are more capable of damage plus the 3+ save is very strong. You lose fearless but on the other hand you still have Ld10. This unit will definitely do more damage to nob bikers since as you have noted all weapons negate the advantage of being complex.
Consider both units versus 9 nob bikers (3x PK) and warboss and assume the terminators get the charge:

Nobz without PKs swing first at 4 attacks each:

6x4A = 24A, 16 hit & 8 wound, 7 saves (allocate 1 wound to GKGM)

Termies swing back simo with PK attacks:

GM has 4A, 2 hit & 2 wound - IDs warboss
Termies have 15A, 8 hit & 7 wound - 2 save
•So 7 wounds total and 2 are allocated to the warboss

Warboss has 5A, 4 hit & 4 wound - 3 saves
Nobs have 9A, 6 hit & 5 wounds - 4 saves
•So only 2 wounds get through & termies win by 5 wounds, most likely nobz will break.

Now let's go back and run through the math hammer for 4 GKs:

GKGM IDs warboss
The 4 GKs will score some wounds but nobz are complex so no models removed & the PKs will smash the GKs.

It's late & I may have made some errors but you get the gist of it. The assault termies will also do a lot better versus multi wound Nid units such as the new 3W Warriors.

G


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note I should not have included the attacks for the warboss since he was insta-gibbed by the GKGM.

G

Why not just take a brother captain with a Psycannon. You lose the force weapon but still have the NFW power weapon. You lose 1 attack. Still with a Psycannon you have a 91 point model. A GKGM will bring you around 200 points. Also one power fist and the GKGM loses all 3 wounds. There's a lot of S8 weapons out there. If you would like to have some thunder hammers swap out one or two GKTs with TH/SS. Only do this to take out MC or Vehicles though. With TH/SS for GKs you can make it so that after the first hit the MC can never attack again if you continue hitting. This is because GK THs make the model hit and wounded go after I1 hits have been made.

IE:
1st round
MC attacks GKT - Wounds saved (I2)
GKT w/ TH hits and wounds. No save/unsaved. MC goes after I1 next round.
2nd Round
GKT attacks with TH and wounds again. No save/unsaved.
TH wounding prevents MC from attacking until after I1 attacks have been made next round ...
Another round or two and a 4 wound model has died from a TH after only being able to attack in the initial assault.