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A couple guys locally have been talking about starting to prepare for Ard boys by having a practice night once every couple weeks, likely increasing as we get closer.

As such, I have version 1.

HQ
Librarian Termi armr, storm shield (Avenger/Null Zone) 140
Troops
Tactical Squad x10 Lascannon/plasmagun/ Rhino 225
Tactical Squad x10 Lascannon/plasmagun/ Rhino 225
Tactical Squad x5 Pf/Razorback TL Assault cannon 190
Tactical Squad x5 Pf/Razorback TL Assault cannon 190
Tactical Squad x5 Pw + mb/Razorback TL Assault cannon 185
Elites
Dreadnought MM/HF 115
Dreadnought MM/HF 115
Terminator Assault Squad x7 5x TH+SS /2x Lcs with LRC EA, MM 555
Fast Attack
Landspeeder x2 MM/HF 140
Landspeeder Typhoon + Heavy bolter 90
Landspeeder Typhoon + Heavy bolter 90
Heavy
Predator Autocannon + Side Las's 120
Predator Autocannon + Side Las's 120

2500

The general idea is to have the predators, rhinos and typhoons in the backfield (or mid - back) while the razorbacks, dreads, LRC and tornadoes take center-forward positions. This is a progression of my 1.5k list which has fared well.

Does this list stand a chance against some of the harder lists out there? What kind of army list strategies will present me with problems?

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you think this would be at Ard Boys?

Dakkaites input is valued! Comment away!

5,

How would you deal with deep striking armies? What if they melta your tanks & speeders first turn?

Landspeeders are very easy to get rid of at 2500 points, beleave it or not I think that attack bikes are much better at that point level. The dreadnoughts are too short range to get into good melta/assault range without a drop pod.

Only 6 lascannons will not be enough to deal with some of the ulta shooty builds. I've seen IG lists with 12+ lascannons along with two manticores. What if my dark eldar get 1st turn with my 22 dark lances?

Also, if you run into the reverse kill points scenerio (where troops are worth 4 killpoints each) you'klll be giving up a TON of killpoints.

I think that your list is too generic to do well at 'ard Boys beyond the first round.

about a 3......

That's a lot of troops but that many troops not doing things at 2,500=losing. In ard boyz either your troops need to have a roll and do it or they need to be kept out of the way of danger while the rest of your army gets to it.

@Hulksmash I really have no idea of what your point is. It should be painfully obvious that the troops will be "doing things", or kept out of the way in a transport. What are you trying to say?

Asugradinwa: Deep striking armies are actually not that bad. Set up a strong middle to block area for deepstriking while I wait for them to come in. If they have outflankers as well I just make sure to say away from board edges. HF/MM speeders can be kept in reserve if I feel they need to be. Please support your argument why attack bikes are better at this point range. I'm curious as to why the point level matters in this regard.

Your point about lascannons is a bit strange. Are you saying the strength of an army can be measured by its lascannon or bright/dark lance count? I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but assault cannons are better against vehicles than lascannons against anything but AV 12.

Your question about serious alpha strike lists is a good one. How do other armies handle your 22 dark lances? I only have 1 LR and 2 Predators, so I'm not particularly vulnerable to lance spam - not like say an LR spam list would be. What about my list makes me particularly vulnerable to these types of lists?

The 4 KP per troop unit (if that includes transports) would be a bit of a problem. But then the 5 KP per HQ mission wouldn't be so bad for me. So yea, I can agree that missions with special rules might punish or reward some aspects of my army.

My point was that if any of those marines get out of transports at that high of a point level they are simply going to disappear. The large amount of units and points sunk into troops (of which regular tac marines aren't actually good at anything) means that your opponent is gonna have more damage dealing power most of the time. What roll do they perform? I'm just curious as looking at them I don't see a strong one for them.

Are you saying to include no tactical squads? I have already eschewed any footslogging marines because I recognize how fragile they are (not only at 2.5k either).

Assuming you are inquiring about the 5 man razorback squads, the roll they fill is mobile scoring unit and assault/tarpitting support for the assault terminators and dreads - which do the heavy lifting. The squad overall excels at anti-MC/vehicle and assault support.

I would not take any more than 3 10 man tac squads and maybe 1 IST at 2500pts for space marines.

One land raider at 2500pts is a waste of points. There will be lists that will have enough lascannon fire to kill it on turn 1.

MM/HF dreads are terrible walking units, even if they move behind other vehicles. Try ac/ac or 'rifleman' dreads.

I'm suprised hulksmash rated it as high as a 3.

imweasel wrote:I would not take any more than 3 10 man tac squads and maybe 1 IST at 2500pts for space marines.

One land raider at 2500pts is a waste of points. There will be lists that will have enough lascannon fire to kill it on turn 1.

MM/HF dreads are terrible walking units, even if they move behind other vehicles. Try ac/ac or 'rifleman' dreads.

I'm suprised hulksmash rated it as high as a 3.

So basically your assertion is that this is almost as weak as possible at 2.5k? Okay interesting.

If one landraider is a waste of points because some armies will be able to kill 1 LR per turn from range, how does including multiple landraiders change that they will go down 1 per turn?

Please support your assertion for MM/HF dreads being terrible - I would really like to know.

Death leaper is something to watch out for as your hq having an ld of 6 could be a real issue for your T squad.

Tactical Squad x5 Pf/Razorback TL Assault cannon 190

I would use another weapon or just pick up an AT for the razor back.

The other issue I see is the five man squad with a power fist. Five men squad are no longer a threat as they can easily be dealth with and at this point total your going to see hth clean up your squad before that str 8 gets a chance to swing. Up your body cound and or add a melta gun to this unit instead of the fist. That is unless you have tried it out prior.

Okay I see a trend is that no one likes the 5 man razorback squads. I'll have to test them out at this point level to make sure they maintain the effectiveness I love in the 1500-2k point range.

Dracos wrote:So basically your assertion is that this is almost as weak as possible at 2.5k? Okay interesting.

Yes. You have spent to many points on units that are not going to be effective.

Dracos wrote:If one landraider is a waste of points because some armies will be able to kill 1 LR per turn from range, how does including multiple landraiders change that they will go down 1 per turn?

Most land raiders only need 2 turns to deliver their 'cargo'. If all you have is one land raider however, they can concentrate all of their firepower into killing or immobilizing it and forcing your termies to foot slog it clear across the entire board. It's hard to kill or immobilize 2 land raiders from across the board. It's simple numbers.

Dracos wrote:Please support your assertion for MM/HF dreads being terrible - I would really like to know.

They are not terrible. Unless they are walking clear across the board with medium range weapons and a flamer template, which yours are. If you want to pod them, they are not terrible. You want to walk them? I would buy another ac/las sponson pred.

Not a bad list. I like the MM dreads. You might not need the HF on them and that can save points. I recommend Dreads with only one gun and one CC arm. It gives you much more tactical flexibility to engage Nobz and Bloodcrushers in assault. The Crusader is nice. I prefer the Redeemer, but I seem to be in the minority on that one. Both LR's will primarily shoot their MM and assault cannons. The Redeemer can use it's flame cannon to get around the 3+ armor save of Jetseer's. It is important to get into their 4+ invulnerable if you want a decent chance of shooting them down. That's the main reason I like the Redeemer over the LRC. It also saves points.

I keep mentioning saving points because I would like to see the 5-man squads beefed up to 10. You can already combat squad them if you want for a game, but there might be some lists you will not want to charge with a 5-man powerfist squad and for those games it would be nice to have a missile launcher. How about melding the 5th TR unit into the others, dumping the HF on the dreads, and get something like this from the troop slots.

TR - 10 marines, lascannon, plasmagun, assault cannon razorback - 265pts
TR - 10 marines, lascannon, plasmagun, assault cannon razorback - 265pts
TR - 10 marines, missile, meltagun, PF, assault cannon razorback - 275pts
TR - 10 marines, missile, meltagun, PW, MB, Rhino - 230pts


You now have gone from 2 long range anti-tank guns in the troop slots to 4. You maintain your 3 twin-linked assault cannons and you've gained 2 meltaguns. You lost one PF. In KP games you have gone from 10 KP in the troop slots to 8, which helps you in those missions. And you have 8 possible scoring units in the troop slots (combat squading everyone) instead of only 7 as before to help in objective missions.

I don't always like advocating making sweeping changes to someone's list. Those players know how to play their army better then us, so I try to make minor changes to an already exsisting list. Changes that can help out in the missions. I think those would be some nice changes that can easily be done and still maintain the core strategy you want from your list. Now as a personal plea, if you can find your way to including a Thunderfire cannon I think you have the makings of a good all around Ard Boyz list. (I'm looking at you 2nd MM speeder) Those T-Fires are something else against the Ork Hordes.

Remember flexibility is the key to success with the Marines. Stay flexible my friend.

Thanks for all the detailed input. I'm still going to test the original list, but I've been thinking that going 2 LRs may be necessary for the reasons imweasel brought forth. 2 LRs are better than 1 only if there is a good chance of seeing lists that can kill 1 LR per turn, but not lists that can kill 2 per turn (from range). This change makes me more vulnerable to Lance/melta spam, however.

One thing is that I really hate having any marines on foot. That means that any razorback squads will always be 5 man for me. The 5 man combat squads with heavy weapons never do anything worthwhile for me, and always get evaporated fast. Those 80+ points I will always spend on other ways to get heavy weapons.

HQ
Librarian Termi armr, storm shield (Avenger/Null Zone) 140
Troops
Tactical Squad x10 Lascannon/plasmagun/ Rhino 225
Tactical Squad x10 Lascannon/plasmagun/ Rhino 225
Tactical Squad x5 Pf+combiflamer/Razorback TL Assault cannon 200
Tactical Squad x5 Pf+combiflamer/Razorback TL Assault cannon 200
Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 (4xTH + SS, 1 LC) + LRC EA MM 475
Terminator Assault Squad x5 (4xTH + SS, 1 LC) 200
Fast Attack
Landspeeder x2 MM/HF 140
Landspeeder Typhoon + Heavy bolter 90
Landspeeder Typhoon + Heavy bolter 90
Heavy
Predator Autocannon + Side Las's 120
Predator Autocannon + Side Las's 120
Landraider Redeemer EA, MM 265

2490

The latest list is a major improvement over your original list.

I personally would take las/tl-plas on the razorbacks over the tl-assault cannon. I would dump the pf's in the 5 man squads. Tacs are bad at assault and a pf only makes them suck slightly less for 25pts. Not worth it. I would rather just have a combi-flamer in those squads.

I also think the termies are 4 th/ss + 1lc.

I would consider dropping the EA on the raiders and with the 10 left over points get another termie.

That's all I got for now.

It's good enough to play test. I think you will find something out about the mm/hf speeders. Try a few games and let us know what you think.