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If you haven't heard me lecture on how bad magic res is in 7th edition after the errata, consider yourself lucky, as it's a real sore spot for me .
However I wanted to double-check that my understanding of the RAW reading of this is as strict as I think it is. Here's the errata:



Now, this does mean that any spell that 'places' or somehow manifests a template is in fact NOT going to kick off MR, correct? I first felt the sting of this when a horror template was placed directly over my MR(3) ogre BSB and those three thiefstones apparently weren't allowed to turn on ... I ask now because frankly, if people are going to nerf my MR-dudes, than I guess I should return the favor? I'm playing a plague-heavy skaven list for the next couple tournaments, so let's look at that spell lore:

Pestilent Breath - "Place the flame template" = no unit targeted, no MR
Bless with Filth - N/A
Wither - "choose any single unit" = synonymous with "target" IMO, so I would allow MR
Vermintide - "All units touched by the template" = no unit targeted, no MR
Cloud of Corruption - "Roll a dice for every unit within 12" of the caster" = no unit targeted, no MR
Plague - "Choose one enemy unit" = "target" synonym, MR is fine by me

I'm not wildly off, am I?

I'd much prefer MR to kick in if the unit is affected at all, but I know this isn't the case - for example pre-errata you used to be able to toss dice at the casket of souls simply by having a MR(X) unit look at it, but not any longer. We'll see if 8th fixes this too

- Salvage

I believe you are correct it would not kick off the MR.
I know with the Vampire's Winds of Death, that it does not kick off MR since it is not targeting the unit.

Assuming consistency, cloud of corruption would activate MR, because it does the same thing for the Casket of Souls (its in the TK FAQ).

The casket targets everything in line of sight, and uses MR, so the cloud with "everything in 12 inches" is likely under the same umbrella of rules as the casket.

Of course, this is only if you consider FAQs to take the entire game into consideration, which is sometimes debatable.

My input (as a regular opponent of yours) is that pestilent breath is a breath weapon and you wouldn't get to pick up magic res. As vermin tide is an undetermined distance I can see it slip through magic res (as would the stone thrower spell nurgle has if it scattered onto a unit that was MR) although I do agree that since cloud of corruption is a determine distance and affects every unit within 12 you would get magic res.

just my 2 cents.

c ya at the tourney!
~DG

Really, you guys are saying cloud kicks off MR? I think cleansing flair is a much better parallel spell than the casket blast - so: does cleansing flair kick off MR? This must come up a number of times in every major tournament, as empire and other light wizards go up against khornate demons ... And with a little searching the Internet seems to agree that cleansing flair and other 'area of effect' spells do NOT trigger MR.

Really surprised to see that the TK FAQ lets anybody with MR that's looking at the casket toss dice at it. Will definitely have to keep that in mind!

- Salvage

It's actually up in the air on the Casket. Latest FAQ, the one you quoted, would let the casket beat MR. Casket specific FAQ would say that MR blocks it. So, do you use the latest FAQ, or the most specific? Both are arguable cases, and the advocates of one or the other can usually be guessed by glancing at the proponent's army.

I think anything that has a casting value that is SOLELY affecting a unit with magic resistance should benefit from the extra dispel dice.

If it's something that affects the whole army, etc. of course it's not just targetting that one unit... so they wouldn't get the dice.

I'm going purely RAI here, btw... I'm not a huge RAW fan . If I was, I'd be reusing warpstone tokens for the skaven army I'm about to build...

Edit: to address the specific question above, I would allow MR if you're putting the flame template over a unit with MR (since you're targetting them with it)... just because someone else did this to you doesn't mean you should do it back imho . You seem very reasonable in your approach to the rules, and I think allowing a unit that is the sole target of a template weapon to use MR is in line with that. If it's a template touching multiple units pretty much equally... I'm not sure, but I guess I wouldn't allow it (unless the primary "target" was the MR unit, and it just so happened to touch another...)

Definitely a vague rule...!

I was about to argue the opposite of what will follow, but I got to thinking and your predicament has caused me to write this argument in an attempt to squash an argument I know I have had many times!

So here we go.

First lets break down the act of casting a spell.
The act of successfully casting a spell should be considered to be an event wherein the offensive caster has successfully managed to conjure up enough magical energy (rolling the power dice) to perform his/her spell and has also overcome all magical interference in the process (outscoring the defensive caster’s dispel score). I will touch on the different types of spells but first let me explain what I mean by interference.
Magical Interference is what I considered any magical or earthly ability to prevent an offensive spell from being conjured, or producing an affect. Notice this dual distinction is important.

Now on to the different types of Magical Interference (MI):

#1) Casting cost of a spell. Simple. The energy it costs to cast a spell. No argument here.

#2) Dispelling: The act of dispelling, at least how I consider it is the attempt made by defensive caster (opposing player) preventing the offensive caster from successfully performing their spell, not providing immunity to the intended target(s) the particular spell. One can view this as the defensive caster bringing to bare all of his intellectual and magical might in a focused attempt to thwart his adversaries casting attempt.

#3) Magic Resistance: Magic Resistance (MR) is a special rule allotted to units that have some innate resiliency to magical phenomena. Practically this can be viewed as an innate aura or some physical property that allows the unit to shrug off all but the most devastating of spells (Blood Letters of Khorne vs. a Skaven Screaming Bell). Depending on the unit this quality can be very strong or not present at all. This is shown by the MR stat line.

Now to differentiate between types of offensive spells (i.e. not ones that benefit your own team!.... well I guess killing the bad guys is helpful):

#1) Magic Missiles: These are spells in which the offensive caster attempts to invoke a spell that will create magical phenomena akin to that of missile fire (arrows or bullets) and is treated as such. It targets one unit. The caster will successfully cast his magic missile spell by overcoming all (MI). No arguments here as it generally only has one target.

#2) Target Specific Spells: These are spells produce effects that are specifically targeted on a unit. (I.E. Wither, Scorch, Foot of Gork… or is it Mork…). In this case the offensive caster is battling to overcome the same (MI) as with magic missiles but practically it is envisioned differently. The offensive caster can be viewed as struggling to conjure enough magical energy to fuel his/her spell (rolling the power dice) and at the same time battling with the will of the defensive caster (rolling the dispel dice) and if he has the fortitude to persevere, to also overcome the magic resiliency of his target (rolling additional dispel dice allotted by the units (MR) stat line). I.e. A target specific spell can be considered to be successfully cast when the offensive caster has overcome all (MI). No arguments here either as target specific spells generally only have one target. I say generally because some have a chance to persist onto a new target.

#3) Area of Effect Spells (AOE): An (AOE) spell necessarily should be treated and classified differently to the above mentioned spells. I argue this because the lack of any distinction is the source of all our bickering! An AOE spell can be viewed as the summoning or creation of a magical phenomenon. The successful casting of the spell, just like a targeted spell, is contingent on the offensive caster conjuring up enough magical energy to overcome all (MI). But the only (MI) the offensive caster should and can encounter here is the casting cost of the spell and the dispel attempt made by the defensive caster. Once can see this as the offensive caster has focused his energies into summoning/creating a magical phenomenon, he has not specifically attempted to target a unit. Therefore the (MR) of a unit should not come into play (yet) in dispelling his casting attempt. This becomes for the offensive caster a battle of energy and then a battle of wills.

So if I left it here I am sure I would receive a large number retorts regarding the fact that (MR) has no affect at all on the dispelling of (AOE) spells. But I apologize there is more.

We need to be careful here how we treat (MR). In the case of an AOE spell (again this is a measured radius spell or breath attack, vermin tide, or a table top effecting spell (Casket of souls) etc.) The defensive caster is able to attempt to interfere and hopefully successfully ruin the offensive casters spell. Some say that (MR) should not be considered or allowed in this situation and some say it should. This is where you run into the argument and the trappings of the current rules. If you do consider (MR) to represent an additive to the defensive casters dispel roll to the casting attempt of the offensive caster then you are making one mighty assumption! And that is that the defensive units (MR) stat line has a universal dispel additive quality, more simply, because my unit of Blood Letters of Khorne are on the table I get to add their magic resistance to the complete dispelling of the (AOE) or table top affecting spell. Try saying that to your opponent and get away with it. You just wouldn’t. Now in the 6th edition, a Khorne unit added to the 1 dice dispel pool. This was a completely distinct and separate from the (MR) rule. It is silly to assume that a generic magic resistant unit is to be considered to have a natural interference with all magic cast period! Suppose you played by under this assumption, and instance arose wherein your unit of (MR) troops was affected by a spell that also affected multiple others, if you roll here to dispel the (AOE) with the (MR) stat line of your troops, but don’t allow your opponent to dispel your target specific spell using the (MR) stat line of one of his units that is not the target, then you are essentially picking and choosing when (MR) is to be treated as a universal dispel additive. It isn’t a rule of if you pick and choose to use it at your benefit. It’s a universal dispel additive or it is not. One or the other. I think we can all agree that the (MR) special rule was clearly not intended to be a universal dispel additive.

So where do we go from here you ask?

Now I think you can handle it that following way: Imagine you are the offensive caster, you have managed to summon enough magical energy to summon/create your spell, and by shear determination you have overcome the onslaught of the defensive caster. (I.e. you rolled high enough on your power dice to satisfy the casting cost and the defensive casters dispel roll was insufficient successfully dispel.) However, the defensive caster’s efforts were not all in vain, as you release your spell you realize the integrity/intensity of the spell was weakened by your opponent and as the spell envelopes its victims the weak die as usual but the especially resistant are able to endure unscathed. Think of it this way, a spell cast with total power is cast with such force and skill it is untouchable, the defensive caster has no chance at dispelling it!

So the following is how this should play out. The offensive caster makes his dice roll for power as usual. If successful the defensive caster can make his/her attempt to dispel, unassisted by any (MR) what so ever, make sure to save the dice roll for it is important. If successful the spell is dispelled out right end of story. If the attempt is failed, the offensive caster measures to see which units are affected as normal. Then determine which units are subject to the (MR) special rule and how many dice they are able to roll. Nominate which magic resistant unit you are rolling for one at a time. Add the score of the additional dice to the score resulting from the dispel roll. If the number is equal to or greater than the casting score of the offensive caster then that unit has RESISTED the affects of the spell. Notice this is NOT a dispel. If the roll was lower than that unit was not resilient enough and has succumb to the effects of the spell. Rinse and repeat as necessary for every unit that has a (MR) stat line.

And there you have my two cents. Hopefully this helps. I could have just posted the last paragraph but leading someone along to the conclusion is usually more helpful. I tried to be as thorough as possible. And subsequently after finishing this argument have no idea why GW didn’t make the rule this way in the first place.

Happy Gaming!

That would make too much sense, frawd, for GW to do it . I agree with you that it would make sense for area effect spells that successfully overcome a dispel attempt, to have a seprate roll for any units with MR (since they would get an extra dice, or more, towards "resisting it" as you say).

However, that's not how it works :-/. It's a good proposed rule, though, and it would make this a whole lot clearer! Although it does add an additional step (or more, depending on how many units have MR) so I wonder if there is a simpler solution.

I agree with you RiTides that more steps is just well... adding more game time. I would have argued with you about the rules not working that way but i used simply used info that i could remember.... i was at work and bored as you might have noticed. But in FAQ for Tomb Kings i just read it pretty much puts the kabosh on my argument. Although i may start trying to play the more sensible way with in house games.

Lets hope for a rework!