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Once again I've been inspired to go out and buy an army book by reading lists on Dakka

This time it's Skaven. I really like the Clan Skryre and Clan Eshin units- and dislike the Clan Pestilens and Clan Moulder units. So here's a list focusing on that:

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Shadow Magnet Trinket, Dispel Scroll- 495
Assassin, Warpstone Stars- 170
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Death Globe- 125
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Doomrocket- 130

29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Warpfire Thrower- 212.5
29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Warpfire Thrower- 212.5
20 Clanrats, Shields, Doom-flayer- 145
20 Slaves- 40
20 Slaves- 40

5 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 115
5 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 115
5 Poisoned Wind Globadiers- 50
5 Warplock Jezzails- 100

Doomwheel- 150
Doomwheel- 150

Total- 2250

The 20-strong unit of clanrats pushes the bell, and a warlock engineer goes with each of the larger units. The slaves can provide fodder for the doomwheels to zap or screen if they live long enough to. I didn't include a musician in the unit pushing the bell, since they'll be unbreakable, and I didn't have the points for a standard. There's also no dispel scroll, although I do have 6 dispel dice in the list.

I wanted to go for a mix in the weapons teams, and since the globadiers (besides looking awesome) can take the mortars, I put the warpfire thrower and the doom-flayer on the other units. The ratling gun looks the least interesting to me, so I didn't include it.

The magic would probably all be from spells of ruin (even though the grey seer could take either) to try to damage the enemy... and attempt to cast skitterleap multiple times each phase (so hopefully one eventually gets through) to move the assassin with the warpstone stars, or the engineer with the death globe. I could also change the death globe to a brass orb (it seems to be more popular) but I'd have to sacrifice my only dispel scroll to do it... and it seems like against most blocks (which is what the template would be best against) a 4+ roll to wound is going to be as good or better than an initiative test, and it ignores armor (but not ward saves) and is half the cost.

What do you think?

Any comments, guys? I was going for a mix of weapons options while still keeping a strong Clan Skryre theme... also, the assassin is a lot of points, but he's even more as far as "cool points" go, so that makes up for it imho . I wouldn't want to take another engineer, since that'd be maxing out on magic. And having an assassin in the list gives a nice opportunity for backstory... about how the greyseer came into his current position of power...

RiTides wrote:Assassin, Warpstone Stars- 170

Good luck with this guy! That's my preferred assassin build from the last book, but now he's 20 points more expensive and his weapon shoots 4" shorter ... Being able to walk on a board edge and tickle things that are standing with 12" of the edge is cool, and the 4+ ward is nice, but he's still expensive and tricky to use. Cool though, eh?

Couple thoughts on the rest of the list:

- The bell unit needs more rats, lots more. 20 WS3 T3 4+ sv wounds aren't very many to chew through, and with no standard or musician (...) you clearly aren't trying to win combat with the bell unit, but hold for a little bit (doom flayer is nice for counter charge here though, well done). I'd toss command back in and bloat the unit up to 30 or so, personally.
- I like globies too, nice to see them get some play I run mine in units of 7 though and play pretty cagey with them, as 5 globies is just enough to cause panic checks within 6" if they get wiped out in one go, and not enough to have extra wounds to keep that from happening. Dunno, I'd rather see 2 of slightly great size + 1 mortar, with the extra points put back into bell rats.

Otherwise its a somewhat under-gunned SAD list, with an assassin and fire throwers for fun times

- Salvage

Oh man, I almost forgot the part where I rewrite your list!

L: Grey Seer - shadow magnet, scroll, bell = 495
H: Assassin - warpstone stars = 170
H: Engineer - level 2, doomrocket = 130
H: Engineer - level 2, death globe = 125

C: 29 Clanrats - standard, musician, shields, warpfire = 212.5
C: 29 Clanrats - standard, musician, shields, warpfire = 212.5
C: 30 Clanrats - standard, musician, shields, doom-flayer = 202
C: 21 Slaves - musician = 44
C: 21 Slaves - musician = 44

S: 8 Globadiers - mortar = 145
S: 7 Globadiers = 70
S: 5 Jezzails = 100

R: Doomwheel = 150
R: Doomwheel = 150
-------
2250

HIYA!

- Salvage

Nice feedback... thanks!

What if I make the three units of clanrats 25 apiece? By also dropping 2 jezzails, I could also up the numbers in the globadiers units... I think that's a very good idea.

I put musicians in the slaves units (another great idea) but not in the unit pushing the bell... as long as the bell is alive, they're unbreakable so they shouldn't need it. If it dies... well, they're in trouble anyway

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Shadow Magnet Trinket, Dispel Scroll- 495
Assassin, Warpstone Stars- 170
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Death Globe- 125
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Doomrocket- 130

25 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Warpfire Thrower- 194.5
25 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Warpfire Thrower- 194.5
25 Clanrats, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 175.5
20 Slaves, Mus- 42
20 Slaves, Mus- 42

6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
7 Poisoned Wind Globadiers- 70
3 Warplock Jezzails- 60

Doomwheel- 150
Doomwheel- 150

Total- 2248.5

I also like that it breaks up the repetitiveness of the list. I do want to keep all three units of glabadiers for the second mortar. I'd like to have at least the two of those things . But hopefully this buffs the globadiers up enough to do something (or not be a liability). I don't mind dropping the two jezzails... they're probably my least favorite model from the list.

So are the blocks big enough? I know it's pushing it... but in the end I only dropped 3 clanrats, and added a standard (plus the musicians to the slaves).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I wanted to go with 30-strong clanrats units, I could drop the jezzails entirely. But does it make it too boring...?

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Shadow Magnet Trinket, Dispel Scroll- 495
Assassin, Warpstone Stars- 170
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Death Globe- 125
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Doomrocket- 130

29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Warpfire Thrower- 212.5
29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Warpfire Thrower- 212.5
30 Clanrats, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 198
21 Slaves, Mus- 44
20 Slaves, Mus- 42

6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
7 Poisoned Wind Globadiers- 70

Doomwheel- 150
Doomwheel- 150

Total- 2249

I can dig #2, more clanrat bodies is more better. Personally I've come to hate my unit of 6 jezzails and have finally dropped it ... for rat ogres My jezzails usually landed 2 hits total in the 2 turns they were allowed to be on the table, and maybe killed 1 cavalry or put 1 wound on a monster. People love to kill them, yet mine never killed anything

As to the lack of variety, yea you kind of do lack it, but 3 jezzails weren't really helping things along Hope those globies work for you, lots of points in funky little skirmishers. Though note that your bigger clanrats make nice targets for their ability to throw into combat!

- Salvage

I perfer List two as well, though I'd drop the musicians in the Slave blocks for more bodies if nothing else. Jezzails to still be used, IMO, need to be 5 large and you need 2-4 units of them. In my games with them they either do good, or if nothing else have made the opponent attack them instead of other more important units. How has the Doom-flayer worked for you?

I think musicians have a place in slave blocks, somewhat for the rally (on 3 or 8 depending on where the seer is at) but mostly for the tie breaker. 2 pts means your 4CR can punish low or 0 CR hammer units

Also RiTides, you know why 21 slaves is better than 20, right? 21 = 6 dead for panic, 20 = 5 dead

- Salvage

Yes, I suspected that might be it I couldn't find another point for the 21st slave in the second unit... would it be better to change their musician into an extra body (just for that one unit)?

For the assassin, you usually have him come on the board edge? I just now finally found where that rule is described (under gutter runners).

Has anyone tried out gutter runners? They're an intruiging special choice... and maybe could go along with the assassin to come on from an edge and suprise some warmachines? I'm kind of liking the assassin as a lone wolf, but it was something I was considering... unless of course people use those horrible night runner models for them!

I'm liking list #2 a lot better, too! I was actually coming on here to delete the one before... I'm glad to have the comments, though . I like the idea of more mid-range firepower, and I don't think the jezzails fit the theme very well.

You're right about the big blocks being helpful for throwing globes into combat . That will be fun to try out!

I think I'm actually going to build this list instead of the beastmen one. It's one of the two, and I'll probably be starting it up in a few weeks.

I'd like to add a bit more of a Clan Eshin theme to the list, rather than just have the assassin. I also found out that there is a metal blister of models for gutter runners that looks much better than the night runners . And they come 3 to a pack! I really like the idea of the Doom-flayer, and I think this would make it more intimidating to charge me (since I can counter charge with impact hits and whirling death).

However, I dropped warpstone stars, since the assassin will be coming on with the gutter runners, and they can all throw together. I also added another dispel scroll, since I'll probably need it at this point level!

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Shadow Magnet Trinket, 2 Dispel Scrolls- 520
Assassin- 120
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Death Globe- 125
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Doomrocket- 130

29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 197.5
29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 197.5
30 Clanrats, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 198
20 Slaves- 40
20 Slaves- 40

6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers- 60
6 Gutter Runners- 72

Doomwheel- 150
Doomwheel- 150

Total- 2250

It's got a nice "rolling death" feel to it with the doomwheels and doom-flayers . I also think it's probably more effective (and a cooler) to have the gutter runners to accompany the assassin, rather than give him the warpstone stars.

What do you think of the changes?

I dig it, you've pushed the list well to get more stuff in. I'd still want a musician in that 30 clanrat block and the slaves, but the points are super tight now, so whatever. Good luck with the flayers, I've not messed with mine, though I know they can be nice for light combat or - if your blocks hold - counter-charge sexiness.

The naked assassin is probably for the best, warpstone stars are ... situational? at best I think. I'm going to stick with mine when I run the dude, but not planning on amazing things

- Salvage

I think with 8 caster levels you should have plenty of DD to handle antimagic. The 2 Dispel Scrolls are overkill, in my opinion. If you can't find anything better to spend the points on, well and good. But I'd look long and hard for something with a little more offensive to boost the offensive side of magic, or to boost your army's killing power.

Wow, good points guys. What about these changes? I dropped one scroll (I'd like to keep one as a just in case) and added Shield of Distraction to the Grey Seer. I want this block in combat, and if they're going to be targetting the seer as the weakest link, they'll be in for a suprise when they each lose an attack

I also added the extra slaves back in, and upgraded the gutter runner to slings. Is it worth it? They'll suffer from an extra -1 to hit from moving and shooting, and then an additional -1 to hit from firing multiple shots, or barring that, a -1 for shooting at long range. However, I guess they could always choose to use their throwing stars instead if that was somehow better.

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Shadow Magnet Trinket, Shield of Distraction, Dispel Scroll- 510
Assassin- 120
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Death Globe- 125
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Doomrocket- 130

29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 197.5
29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 197.5
30 Clanrats, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 198
21 Slaves- 42
21 Slaves- 42

6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers- 60
6 Gutter Runners, Slings- 78

Doomwheel- 150
Doomwheel- 150

Total- 2250

Thanks for the continued input, guys... I think it's getting a lot more refined than when I started!

The seer can't take magic armor, as he can't take mundane armor I'd so no slings, as the assassin doesn't have one and if you run them together then everybody gets to play with their ninja stars.

Instead of the second scroll on the seer, have you looked at pipes of piebald? I really like these in concept, as even ItP things have to take that Ld test - and if they flop right in front of the bell, you'll actually get to charge with the thing and get impact hits?! I'm taking the pipes instead of a second scroll in my skaven lists, but it hasn't paid off yet (because I've never remembered it ........)

- Salvage

Ah, I knew it was too good to be true! The Pipes of Piebald are a cool idea, but since lots of things are going to have to take a check anyway, I think I'd rather have the numbers.

What about adding 2 more gutter runners with those 25 points? That makes them more of a serious threat with their throwing stars when they walk on the board, and might even let me use them alone and the assassin separately.

What do you think about tactics with them? I haven't been sure whether it would be good to have the assassin come on with them, come on alone (so that they can be a separate throw-away unit to go after a cannon or something similar), or hide him in another unit (to have a secret close combat boost). I'm also thinking that with all of my magic, if I have somewhere I want him to go, I will probably be able to get off skitterleap at some point, since I could try casting it up to 3 times per phase!

Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Shadow Magnet Trinket, Dispel Scroll- 495
Assassin- 120
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Death Globe- 125
Warlock Engineer, Lvl 2, Doomrocket- 130

29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 197.5
29 Clanrats, Mus, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 197.5
30 Clanrats, Std, Shields, Doom-flayer- 198
20 Slaves- 40
20 Slaves- 40

6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Poisoned Wind Mortar- 125
6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers- 60
8 Gutter Runners- 96

Doomwheel- 150
Doomwheel- 150

Total- 2249

So, any tips on whether to run the gutter runners and assassin together or separate?

Well an upside to both those units is that you have a LOT of options depending on enemy war machines, loner mages, deployment, etc. The assassin can walk on by himself, scout, hide in a unit, deploy (), or hide in the gutters themselves. The gutters meanwhile can scout, walk on or deploy like normal ().

The thing about putting gutters & assassin together and keeping them off table, there is nothing to suggest that they'll automatically arrive together. You have to roll for the assassin and the gutters separately, and only if you get lucky and pass BOTH infiltrator rolls will they appear together. The way around this? Hide the assassin in the gutters off table, then you only roll for the gutters, and once they arrive you pop the assassin out in the following close combat phase (so he doesn't get to throw his star first turn). Note that if you're really unlucky and the gutters never show, the assassin counts as dead with them ...

I think the best bet is to be flexible with the ninjas, big and small. If you need to tackle multiple war machines, maybe walk them both on separately - the assassin has a decent chance of surviving whatever the machine can fire at it at close range, then taking it out himself.

Beyond nabbing machines or loner characters or march blocking or tackling min-sized light cav / utility troops, I'm not sure that gutters, even with an assassin, should be tackling anything else. For example when I play chaos, my gutters simply march block, toss some stars for fun and go sit in a corner

- Salvage

Wow, that's very comprehensive advice

I had thought about hiding him with the gutters and having them walk on, but I didn't realize I would have to reveal him after (and not before) walking on- good point! I'm thinking that if I did this, it would be best to wait to reveal him until they were actually in combat (so not until the following turn) right? Or go ahead and reveal him so that he can... what? I'm not sure what benefit there would be from revealing him before combat?

Good point about the march-blocking, too! I hadn't thought of that... I wish I could find the points for smoke bombs on the assassin, but I'd rather have the extra gutter runner.

The plus side to all this is that I'm going to have 2 clanrat bodies leftover (buying 7 boxes leaves me with 12 leftover- 10 for the weapons teams conversions, and 2 for gutter runners ) so I can swing 8 with only buying 2 blisters of gutter runners (and not have to repeat the poses again).

Mmmmmm..... now if I could just have it magically appear before me all assembled, painted and done! Haha... but this has been really useful since it's helping me plan out what to buy, and in what order. I already went and picked up the two warlock engineers and assassin (using the Snikch model) to give me inspiration

id hate to say it but a cannon and abomination are better for rares.

the assassin works well with skitterleap. jumps out, killls, and runs away or into.

your list is ok to start, try 5 giant rats and a pack master, for table quarters and missdirection.

the globes are good but limited. i love them to death but they run away fast, and dont always fulfilll a usefull role.

I believe you about the rare choices, but I think the doomwheels will fit my theme better . I don't like using cannons, and the abomination belongs in a clan moulder themed list, not my clan skryre one! The same goes for the giant rats.

I'm committing myself to the globe-throwers, I know! Really, not counting the weapons teams it's only 180 points spent on them, which isn't bad imho. I'm hoping that having enough of them will make it more worthwhile / have more impact than having just a few.

They'll probably be hanging out behind / between the larger blocks and getting ready to toss at anything that gets close. And of course firing the mortars as they advance!

Thanks for the comments