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I was thinking about using Ol' Zogwart the other day, and I thought of a situation I didn't know what to do with.

Say Zoggy is running 20 shota boys. During the opponant's turn 15 of the boys are shot to ribbons, and they fail their morale and break. During my turn they can't regroup (being under 50%) and run some more, but not off the table.
Here's where it gets odd: At the beginning of my shooting phase, Ol' Zoggy must roll for a psychic ability and use it. Say I roll a 5 for 'Ere We Go!" meaning the unit is picked up off the table and come in via Deep Strike later. Now unless I am missing something in the rules that psykers can't make psychic tests while falling back or something similar that would prevent Zoggy from using his tricks that he MUST use, I am left with a question:

Is the unit still falling back and unable to regroup upon Deep Striking?

My first thought was that they would retain all status effects they had previously, though of course the only relevant status effect is falling back. However, I don't really see any reason for this in the rules. One could just as easily say that since they are falling back, as soon as they leave the board they count as being destroyed.
Am I missing something, or is this really just undefined?

IIRC, you would deep strike and the next turn continue running towards your edge.

Yes, nothign removes your "broken" status, you have simply randomly teleported to somewhere else on the field.

Yup. you Deep Strike then just keep on Running. Only way to stop them running would be for Mad Doc to join up with them or to call Ghaz's Waaaaaaaaaaagh!

But in this case, would the deep strike have to (inital placement at least) bring them closer to their table edge? While the choice of power is involuntary (ie random die roll), the placement of the deep strike is totally within control of the owning player. Or is this going to be like the Monolith question and conceivably keep a broken unit hopping around the table until it's destroyed?

This is different to the monolith, as the monolith, not the broken unit, moves and determines the final placement of the falling back necron unit.

Here, however, it is neither movement phase (where they must fall back) or Run (where it was faq'd to say it should fall back again, if memory serves) so I think you are allowed to place them whereever you like.

So, back to the old "teleporting around the board isn't movement" discussion, right?

In this case it is movmemnt (as deepstrike is movement) however it doesnt occur in the movement phase (which is where they *must* fall back to board edge) and isnt Run (which was faq'd to state it is still a fall back move) so again, you dont appear to be under compunction to end up closer to your board edge.

The monolith example is very different, as it is an active "move" performed upon the unit, rather than by the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In this case it is movmemnt (as deepstrike is movement) however it doesnt occur in the movement phase (which is where they *must* fall back to board edge) ...

Deep Striking happens in the movement phase.

Going by the various discussions that have shown that Deep Striking is movement, and the requirement for Falling Back units to move towards their table edge, I think the closest you get to RAW would be for them to have to Deep Strike closer to their table edge.

But given that it all falls into a bit of a grey area, since it technically breaks the Fall Back process anyway, I'd go with allowing them to Deep Strike anywhere on the board and then continue Falling Back next turn.


Or, for a more Orky way of doing it, have them Deep Strike anywhere on the board, and then force them to move D6" in a random direction on their next turn before they start falling back again after finding the bearings...

No, acutally not *all* deep striking happens in the movement phase - GoI springs to mind, as well as the Ork power under discussion (all ork powers are in the shooting phase) so we know it is *movement* but only Movement Phase (plus run, via FAQ) is required to be towards the board edge.

I do like your idae though, very Orky

I agree that it seems to match the rest of the rules better if they need to DS closer to the edge, and can't use it to avoid falling back.

But it is not explcit, so there is room to argue the opposite.

So run, which occurs in the shooting phase, has to be towards the board edge, but this doesn't? To me the run FAQ has set the precedent saying that it doesn't matter when the "move" occurs, it has to be towards you board edge. But that's just my interpretation of it.

Except it sets no preccedent, as they didnt answer the general case.

If they had said that ANY movement performed *by* the unit must always be towards the board edge then you would be correct. Although that still wouldnt alter the Monolith....

To me, the Falling Back rules already answer the general case, that all movement during the fall back move must be towards their board edge. ("Each model in the unit falls back directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route.") Phase or even player's turn doesn't matter. Tank shock, my movement phase, you fall back towards your table edge. I lose models to 'Gets Hot' and fail a Morale test, I fall back towards my table edge. So a blanket answer on which direction a falling back unit has to go already exists. What does that leave us as the reason for the FAQ?

What the FAQ clarifies is that non-standard (ie not the 2d6 fall back move) must also be towards the board edge. And I still think it applies to movement inflicted upon the unit by outside sources, since the rule has no exception for that.................. But that's just me, apparently.

My pet question is what to do if you perform a deep strike and the scatter die indicates a position further away from the table edge.

Is the deep striking unit's player required to immediately renounce his or her dice as cheaters for trying to break the rules? Or is it the player's fault for putting the unit into a position where it had a one in three chance of cheating?

Good question. Personally, I'd go with as long as the initial placement was closer to the board edge, then all i swell, as the scatter is totally outside the player's control.

I just dont get why you are so against the Monolith ruling - in this case it is something *entirely* outside of the falling back units control - the monolith picks them up and dumps them out front. That's it, they have no choice in the matter no matter where the Monolith happens to be.

because a unit falling back should only be allowed to move in one direction, towards their board edge. The player should not be allowed to perform an action that is contrary to that that. Or are you saying that the player has no choice of what unit to teleport through the Monolith is not voluntary as well?

Whereas I am saynig the *unit* is the one falling back, and only actions taken by *that unit* on that unit should count for falling back and be subject to the restrictions.

ANything performed by OTHER units isnt under the same prohibition.

And I disagree. That's just the way I think it should be handled, that a falling back unit only gets to move, regardless of motive force, in one direction. Shall we ride the merry-go-round again or can we just agree to disagree.....?

don_mondo wrote:And I disagree. That's just the way I think it should be handled, that a falling back unit only gets to move, regardless of motive force, in one direction. Shall we ride the merry-go-round again or can we just agree to disagree.....?

Except the falling back unit isn't moving, it is being moved.

don_mondo wrote:And I disagree. That's just the way I think it should be handled, that a falling back unit only gets to move, regardless of motive force, in one direction. Shall we ride the merry-go-round again or can we just agree to disagree.....?

Move /= being moved.

Deep Strike isn't movement. It's a deployment. The boyz would teleport to any point you wish on the table and fall back during their next movement.


Necrons who are falling back can't pile out of a Monolith portal: exiting the Monolith counts as disembarking from a transport, and fallback moves disallow interaction with transports.

Deep strike IS movement, as it states you "cannot move ANY FURTHER" - meaning you have moved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deep strike IS movement, as it states you "cannot move ANY FURTHER" - meaning you have moved.

No, it counts as movement, which is why you cannot move any further. it isn't actually movement.

but it doesnt state it counts as movement, you are told you cannot move any further. Not being able to move any further, in the absence of anything to the contrary, must mean you have moved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:but it doesnt state it counts as movement, you are told you cannot move any further. Not being able to move any further, in the absence of anything to the contrary, must mean you have moved.

Exactly. You have moved, but it does not say it is actually movement, so it isn't movement, but you count as moving.

not being able to move any further means you *must* have moved, otherwise that sentence is incorrect according to the rules of the english language.

In other words - it would have to say it wasnt movement otherwise it IS movement.

The rules also refer to a "deep strike move" pg 95 BRB in the deep strike rules. It is movement end of discussion that is what the rules call it. It is also deployment (as it also calls it that) just like coming on from reserve is both deployment and movement.