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Had this come up in a tournament recently.


My opponent had a line of 5 Cold One riders, and he joined it with his Lord on a Carnosaur. Then, he attached 2 Stegadons to the end of the line, so he could claim the Shield of the Mirrored Pool against anything in that line.


So basically his line consisted of the majority of his army, at least points wise. It was one big line consisting of 5 cold ones, Carnie w/Lord, EotG, EotG.


It may be that this is legal, but it didn't "feel" right. Any thoughts on this?


Clay

Cheesy as hell but from what I can see it's legal. Anyone running 2 EotG in a tourny is a douchebag to begin with, so gak tactics like this aren't surprising.

By RAW, so long as the monster is a Monstrous Mount, and not a stand alone monster, it seems to be legal.

To echo aerethan, cheesy as hell, but legal.

The whole thing has to charge together, or have one part break off. So they're not engaging as many targets or threatening as much of the battlefield this way. Seems like a very tempting target for a flank charge.

Entirely 100% legal.

And two engines arent cheesy, compared to daemohotekDrakenhoff spam you see. 2 engines makes an auto lose into a possible, depending on how well you roll on that D6

Well to compare cheese against daemons or VC is to compare equals.

EotG is like a steam tank. 1 is a given, 2 is just bad form(although a stegadon is easier to kill).

Either way, this many points sunk into a single unit begs for all shooting attention and being avoided in combat. Throw tar pits at them or throw cannon fodder at them to keep them busy. I agree that a flank charge(no matter which model is on the side) would likely destroy them. Also keep in mind that the unit still has to test for stupidity, can only move 6", and doesn't benefit from Immune to Psych or Stubborn.

With so many drawbacks I don't see how this is a game winner.

Except, as I pointed out, Lizard "cheese" doesnt evenm come CLOSE to equalling Daemons or Dark Elves. Really, not even a hope. As I said - turns an auto lose (one engine) into you-have-a-chance, just better hope you kill that Blood thirster in one round however.

It also DOES benefit from stubborn - you're incorrect on that - a stubborn character in a non-stubborn unit is still stubborn, what you cannot do is benefit from the generals ld at stubborn. It also does benefit from ItP, as the unit is still unable to flee as one member (at least) cannot flee.

Do you have a page for that? I may have missed that or it just didn't sink in when I read it. Makes putting an Engine in a unit more useful for sure.

I was under the impression that character rules don't move to the unit unless specified.

I'm not saying you are wrong, in fact I hope you are right as it will open up a few fun ideas for me.


EDIT: my research shows that Stubborn transfers to the unit, but ItP does not. Page 78 paragraph 3. Now I know that the stegadon itself is what is ItP, but it is a monstrous mount in this case, and thus follows the rules for characters as defined on page 79 under Mounts' Psychology.

Dang, I knew I was forgetting something. He never rolled Stupidity on those Cold ones all game long.



We actually drew the game in question, so I was just curious. I had a few Magic missles that were completely useless against most of his army because of the joined up unit and that item.




Clay

ITP doesn't transfer to the unit, which is mostly a good thing, as now the unit can flee. The unit causes terror, so won't care about terror or fear causing units.

What. A. Douche.

Not even I am that evil and I will pull some mean moves against DoC, VC and DE. I wouldn't do something like this against anyone but them.

More on topic, sadly it is legal but that has already been said. Stubborn would transfer to the unit but would only really be useful in the Ld of the unit dropped to six or below since only the Steg has the rule.

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain you can opt against using the Stubborn leadership if the units leadership would be more.

It would be really funny to see something cause that unit to panic and flee though.

Is there a specific entry saying that monsters cannot join units? I've always assumed that they couldn't (I guess they can here since they're a mount...) but could never find the rule...

Page 58 paragraph 4.

" Monsters always fight individually; they can never join other models to form a unit, except when they are ridden by a character."


EDIT: by =/= buy silly typo

aerethan wrote:I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain you can opt against using the Stubborn leadership if the units leadership would be more.

You are right, which is why it would be pointless to opt to use it unless the Ld or the unit dropped to that of the Steg (six)

Huh, didn't realize people were still jamming engines into units. Right after the lizard book came out I had the pleasure of facing ~16 temple guard + slann + 2 engines in one unit, plus some skirmishing skinks for pesky legality reasons. My skaven were a bit taken aback, but then proceeded to bait the huge unit into difficult terrain and coat it in firepower - disabled an engine and ejected it from the unit with a sexy warpfire shot up into the howdah that burnt the priest alive, and hammered ratter + jezzail shots into the TG until they were gone. Then the remaining engine received a fellblade for its troubles, as he had bungled his charge distances pretty badly.

It helped that kharma punched him in the face early and often: he miscast 3 times in a row, rolling the result where caster + those in base contact take S6 hits, which helped me tear into the TG for sure

Anyway, cheeky things, those lizards.

- Salvage

plusARGON wrote:

aerethan wrote:I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain you can opt against using the Stubborn leadership if the units leadership would be more.

You are right, which is why it would be pointless to opt to use it unless the Ld or the unit dropped to that of the Steg (six)

Chief with steg helm would be Stubborn Ld8, which makes the unit much more likely to not flee. Howebver the steg helm is pretty much useless as an item 99% of the time.....

Boss_Salvage wrote:Huh, didn't realize people were still jamming engines into units. Right after the lizard book came out I had the pleasure of facing ~16 temple guard + slann + 2 engines in one unit, plus some skirmishing skinks for pesky legality reasons. My skaven were a bit taken aback, but then proceeded to bait the huge unit into difficult terrain and coat it in firepower - disabled an engine and ejected it from the unit with a sexy warpfire shot up into the howdah that burnt the priest alive, and hammered ratter + jezzail shots into the TG until they were gone. Then the remaining engine received a fellblade for its troubles, as he had bungled his charge distances pretty badly.

It helped that kharma punched him in the face early and often: he miscast 3 times in a row, rolling the result where caster + those in base contact take S6 hits, which helped me tear into the TG for sure

Anyway, cheeky things, those lizards.

- Salvage

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. So good.

As a side note, if your army is at all maneuverable, there's almost no way that thing could change direction without a turn or reform...imagine how much movement it would take just to wheel it...

You can also still shoot at the Stegs as they are still large targets in a unit. So the unit offers nothing but extra models in BTB if it ever makes it into combat. Like the above poster commented, shoot at the stegs, pop the Priest off the back and the unit auto ejects the resulting riderless mount. And to add more fun into the mix, if the carnosaur is frenzied (or the character on the back) then he will charge out of the unit if the unit doesn't declare a charge. Thus is why Skink ABSB w/ the frenzy banner in TG is a REALLY REALLY bad idea.

Which is why a 2 steg, 6 (poss 7, cant recall) coldone unit with banner bearer only works well - it has a +3 rank bonus, banner bonus, is stubborn Ld7 with BSB (chief with lance), and can still manouver like any other 5 wide cav unit. You then have enough points for an old blood on carnosaur and some other stuff to help witht he flanking. Add the "may always march" magical item on the priest on engine, and it makes it fairly manoueverable.

Still not as good as keepin ghtem seperate, but the best deathstar a lizard army can put together.

And it is *still* about half the power level of a half decent DE, DoC or VC army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And it is *still* about half the power level of a half decent DE, DoC or VC army.

Which is the most upsetting part.

Actually, I quite like that it isnt up there power level - it means I can have a fun game against the new Beastmen book as I know from the start that, barring never rolling above a "1", the game should be fairly even - I probably have a slight list advantage, but a decent general will overcome that.

Hopefully VC/DE/DoC are the abberations

I am glad Lizardmen aren't broken. I just find it sad that even a ridiculous unit like that can't deal with the broken-ness of those three.

From my understanding LM are a 4th place army if all the easy ones are present. The order being:

DoC
VC
DE
LM
everyone else.

The order is

DE
VC / DoC
Lizards / knight warriors / Skaven
Everyone else
Ogres

A well built DE army can, and more than 60% of the time does, beat the standard DoC list.

nosferatu1001 wrote:A well built DE army can, and more than 60% of the time does, beat the standard DoC list.

Oh? Seems most tourneys are bulldozed by Daemon lists most prevalently. Certainly better than 60%.

NotUK GT, or SCGT, or Cardiff Carnage, or....

UK scene, if the US havent worked out how to build a decent DE list yet, then sorry

DE are brutal, especially at low points games. Got massacred by my wife today at 500 points.

DEa re more brutal at 2250 - Hotek dragon lords completely neuter the opposign magic phase.

AGreed that at low points values they are hard - 750 points they can put out a lot of shooting, and COK are cheap enough cav to put in. WE had a small tournament howver and the worst small points army is probably Wood Elves forest spirits

Unlike daemons they have manouverability, and you can fit the treesinging spellsinger, a treeman (with spell singing) and 3 units of dryads in the list. It is manouverable, ItP, causes fear (or terro) and you can usually surf the treeman into your opponents half with lucky repeated one dice rolling of treesinging.

Friend Took it to the old conflict doubles tournament a few year back, partnered with my old lizard skinks list. 6 levels of magiv, with diadem, meant we had up to 10 castings of treesinging to move the woods and treema to where we wanted. skinks shielded the dryads from most shooting. 2/1/0 and that was only because we were nice and didnt get someone DQ'd for running a horribly illegal list.