BRAINSTORM: Need input for an FAQ for the Battle Mission "Kill Teams"

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**MasterSlowPoke**

I'm planning on hosting a small Kill Teams tournament at my local store a few weeks after the Battle Mission book comes out, so I figured that having a document with rules clarifications/house rules would be a major help. Here is what I have so far:

For Use with with the Battle Mission "Kill Team"

Additional Rules:

VEHICLES AND LEADERSHIP
For the purposes of the end-of-game leadership check, vehicles are assumed to have the leadership of the "typical" Troop model of that army. For example, if the only remaining model from a Space Marine kill team was a Razorback, the end-of-game check would be on the LD of a Space Marine (8), while a Warbuggy would be on the LD of an Ork Boy (7). [Insert chart with all army leaderships for final document]

UNITS WITH REQUIRED PURCHASES [I don't like the name of this rule, anyone have a better idea?]
Any unit that requires at least one other unit to be purchased to be a legal FOC choice (for example, Tau Pathfinders or Imperial Guard Infantry Squads) may instead be purchased separately. However, units purchased this way take up a whole FOC "slot". This means that an Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon can either be purchased all as a single FOC choice as per the normal rules, and/or any of the squads that normally make up a platoon can be purchased separately, but cannot share their FOC "slot" with any other platoon choice.

TRANSPORT VEHICLES
As all models are now units in of themselves, Transport vehicles may now transport any number of units, up to the transport capacity of the vehicle.

UNIT-WIDE SPECIAL RULES
If a model would normally confer a special rule onto it's unit, either via wargear (Ork Painboy) or a special ability (Eldar Striking Scorpion Exarch with Shadowstrike), the special rule is now conferred to all units who were members were part of that FOC selection until the model conferring the rule is killed.

SKYLEAP
The Eldar Swooping Hawk Exact Power "Skyleap" is completely nonfunctional in Kill Team.

I'm mainly looking for rules that are frankly missing from Kill Team (like Vehicle Leadership) or that enhance the "theme" of Kill Teams (like the Required Purchases Rules). Is anything I have here too strange. Is there anything that has come up in your test games that should be added?

I'm also working completely based off memory, as BM won't be released for another 2 weeks.

**SkeTcHy LaRRy**

Wish I could help you with that, but just way too many veriables. Run your test games and see what pops up. It look ok on paper (or screen, whatever) but you know how games go. Keep us updated though. Sounds pretty solid so far.

**MasterSlowPoke**

Ok, on another forum I got a bit more discussion, and we pretty much unaminously agreed that Unit-Wide rules should be based on distance from the model providing the rule, as having a Painboy hiding behind a rock three feet away really shouldn't help.

I'd really like to keep the FAQ to one page but it seems like special rules would really keep that from happening. I think it should be coherency for most things (like Medics), the stated range and LOS for "bubbles" (such as Standards), and a few things that will have to be defined at 6" rather than coherency, such as Sorcerer Commands or Psychic Choir. I'd also say things that effect deployment (like a Striking Scorpion Exarch) would have to be deployed within 6" of the model with the special rule.

Is there anything else that should use a 6" range over coherency? Any thoughts on Faith Points? I'm not quite sure how to work them, as I don't play or know anyone who plays Witchhunters.

**ChrisCP**

you could see for things like painboy/medic if the model could actually 'run' over to help 2d6 or something like that, if you wanted more randomness. But otherwise the 6' bubble seems solid.
Faith points should just need LoS as glimpsing your savior is enough to give rise to faith imo.
Psy stuff maybe handle in the same way as synapse 12'??

Basic troop leadership for transports yep that's good, possible able to use embarked passengers LD value if able?
Maybe each modle should count as 2? But you'd only running 3 guys +transport right so not at all important doh!

**MasterSlowPoke**

The end-of-game leadership test is on the highest surviving LD, so the passengers don't have to affect the Transport's leadership.

**DevianID**

For transport LD, though, what if the transport is the only thing left on the board? I think that is where the LD rules for a basic model he mentioned comes into play.

My rules changes to make Kill Team a bit more functional are thusly:

First rule, you need 3 different kinds of models in the list. This does 2 things: 1 it stops someone from just taking a 200 point ven dread for the darn near autowin. (it also prevents a marine player from just taking an uber termie squad) 2, it means that you have a minimum of 3 models to give 3 seperate USRs too, and seeing as the 3 USR seem to be one of the cooler aspects of kill team, I think it should be mandatory to have 3 different kinds of models at a minimum to be able to give the USRs.

Second rule, squads can all form back up and leave a squad like independant characters would. Thus, if squadmates are within 2 inches of each other at the end of the movement phase, they are now a squad. This does many things, all of which I think are positive. First, it means that more than 1 model can ride in a transport at the same time, with better rules support than just letting multiple units from different sources ride in a transport at the same time. Second, this allows you to squad up around key Kill Team members, such as your missile launcher getting 4 bolter bodyguards, so that important members of a kill team cant be sniped. How fun would it be, if facing a rhino/razor, to have your 1 heavy weapon sniped on turn 1, leaving you no way to kill the transport? Third, by allowing units to squad up, this allows the unit to make use of squad based powers, without having to add even more rules like above.

So, in summary, 2 rules to fix most things: 3 different types of models minimum, and squad members can form up with other squad members like independant characters join/leave units.

**MasterSlowPoke**

Ok, here's the Second Draft of my FAQ. Now that the book's officially out we can hopefully get more feedback.

For Use with with the Battle Mission "Kill Team"

Additional Rules:

VEHICLES AND MORALE
For the purposes of the end-of-game leadership check, vehicles are assumed to have the leadership of the "typical" Troop model of that army. For example, if the only remaining model from a Space Marine kill team was a Razorback, the end-of-game check would be on the LD of a Space Marine (8), while a Warbuggy would be on the LD of an Ork Boy (7). [Insert chart with all army leaderships for final document]
Furthermore, Vehicles that are Immobilized count as Destroyed for purposes of the end-of-game leadership check. For example, a Space Marine Combat Squad and a Rhino would be forced to test for the end of the game if two Marines are removed as casualties and the Vehicle is immobilized.

COMPULSORY CHOICES
Any unit that requires at least one other unit to be purchased to be a legal FOC choice (for example, Tau Pathfinders, Imperial Guard Infantry Squads, or Imperial Assassins) may instead be purchased separately. However, units purchased this way take up a whole FOC "slot". This means that an Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon can either be purchased all as a single FOC choice as per the normal rules, and/or any of the squads that normally make up a platoon can be purchased separately, but cannot share their FOC "slot" with any other platoon choice.

TRANSPORT VEHICLES
As all models are now units in of themselves, Transport vehicles may now transport any number of units, up to the transport capacity of the vehicle.

UNIT-WIDE SPECIAL RULES
If a model would normally confer a special rule onto it's unit, either via wargear (Ork Painboy) or a special ability (Eldar Striking Scorpion Exarch with Shadowstrike), the special rule is now conferred to all units who were members were part of that FOC selection, so long as the units are within 2" and Line-of-Sight of the model that grants the rule. For rules that affect deployment (such as Shadowstrike), the units must be placed within 6" of the model that grants the special rule.

SKYLEAP
The Eldar Swooping Hawk Exact Power "Skyleap" is completely nonfunctional in Kill Team.

FAITH POINTS
Someone help me on this. I have no idea.

Edit: Can't believe I forgot:

DOOM OF MALAN'TAI
The Doom of Malan'tai may not be taken.

**tetrisphreak**

Banning one particular model is just hate, man. Hate.

Walking the doom across the board (no reserves in kill team) means you have at least 2 turns to shoot at him and force 3+ saves before his spirit leech even has a chance to go off. Only a doofus would shoot his cataclysm attack while he only has 4 wounds, and potentially lose 3 of them before gaining ANY back.

Let the doom play, man. Let the doom play!

edit: your faq also allows Tervigons to be taken as troops w/out compulsory termagants. Spawning additional units (possibly every turn) could admittedly be very broken.

Tervigon - Catalyst, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, scything talons - 200 pts. Counts as troop (since prerequisite termagants not required)

If you want to ban a single model i would recommend Tervigons over doom of malan'tai

**Gorkamorka**

I've got to actually be within 2" of a painboy with all of my models to get FNP, and not just general coherency? Lame, I vote for it chaining through normal coherency rules at least.

Boss zagstruk is still my favorite killteam rules setup... his squad must deepstrike in, but can't (and if the squad does deepstrike assault the unit loses d3 stormboyz... but they're each a unit so does... I don't even know). It's annoying, considering he's one of only ~3 mildly viable ork killteam setups I can think of... damn dread lists keep throwing a wrench in everything.

A simple 'if you must enter from reserves you can' sort of ruling would be nice, as not all units have the 'even if the mission rules disallow it' caveat. That or just banning such units as they're unplayable by RAW, but that's sort of lame.

**Eos Rahh**

In my group We have just accepted that things like a painboy tonight give everyone his effect period. That really seems to be what the rules are trying to say. One interesting thing that we have come up with is that. An icon of chaos glorly lets you reroll failed LD test right? so as long as he is alive and the guy with the highest LD. Couldnt youuse him to re roll said LD test for being below half?

**ChrisCP**

tetrisphreak wrote:

edit: your faq also allows Tervigons to be taken as troops w/out compulsory termagants. Spawning additional units (possibly every turn) could admittedly be very broken.

I belive you are mistaken on this point as one can always take a tervigon anyway, taking a unit of termagants allows it to be taken as a troop. different from taking it as a troop choice claiming to have fufilled the conditions to make it no longer a HQ. Ie changing the FOC critera of a tervigon by taking 1 termagant perfectly fine just drop the ST lol.

Doom is broken because one would fire off his template first thing, probably clipping 3/4 guys with an average of twoish wounds, and a loss of 2 leaving the doom on 'full' wound wondering towars the again while their down two models etc etc, even worse when he already starts _gaining) wonds... mind you 3 str 8 roketc make doom go boom.

Ld tests are different to moral checks iirc.

Faith points - I'd need to brush up on them properly but would, 1 per model and +/- 1 for each thing you kill or lose, be viable?

**MasterSlowPoke**

Gorkamorka wrote:I've got to actually be within 2" of a painboy with all of my models to get FNP, and not just general coherency? Lame, I vote for it chaining through normal coherency rules at least.

Boss zagstruk is still my favorite killteam rules setup... his squad must deepstrike in, but can't (and if the squad does deepstrike assault the unit loses d3 stormboyz... but they're each a unit so does... I don't even know). It's annoying, considering he's one of only ~3 mildly viable ork killteam setups I can think of... damn dread lists keep throwing a wrench in everything.

A simple 'if you must enter from reserves you can' sort of ruling would be nice, as not all units have the 'even if the mission rules disallow it' caveat. That or just banning such units as they're unplayable by RAW, but that's sort of lame.

Chaining would be workable, I just don't know how to explain it without being too verbose.

How do you propose to handle the deep strike? You could use the standard rules for single models or Drop Pods, but a unit of 15 Orks needs a clarification. Do they all come in on the same point like normal? Deep strike individually? How do you handle the D3 Orks lost?

**Gorkamorka**

MasterSlowPoke wrote:
How do you propose to handle the deep strike? You could use the standard rules for single models or Drop Pods, but a unit of 15 Orks needs a clarification. Do they all come in on the same point like normal? Deep strike individually? How do you handle the D3 Orks lost?

Hence the question for your faq, it's quite a can of RAW worms

Do they even all come in at the same time, or would they roll for reserves separately?
I'll have to think about an answer.

Coherencywise... units that 'achieve normal coherency to the model using only models bought with that unit' or something?

**solkan**

Not to mention what happens if someone tries to use Chaos Daemons in that mission...

Do you treat each model as a separate unit, and therefore divide the force into two sides with equal numbers of models?

**yakface**

I haven't read this mission yet, so I can't help you with any additional questions/answers, but as for your existing FAQ, I think the wording is a bit confusing in a couple of areas, so here's my suggestion if you'd like it:

For Use with with the Battle Mission "Kill Team"

Additional Rules:

VEHICLES AND MORALE
For the purposes of the end-of-game leadership check, vehicles are assumed to have the leadership of the "typical" Troop model of that army. For example, if the only remaining model from a Space Marine kill team was a Razorback, the end-of-game check would be on the LD of a Space Marine (8), while a Warbuggy would be on the LD of an Ork Boy (7). [Insert chart with all army leaderships for final document]
Furthermore, Vehicles that are Immobilized count as Destroyed for purposes of the end-of-game leadership check. For example, a Space Marine Combat Squad and a Rhino would be forced to test for the end of the game if two Marines are removed as casualties and the Vehicle is immobilized.

COMPULSORY UNITS & MANDATORY RESTRICTIONS
Compulsory units and Mandatory restrictions in army lists are ignored. This means, for example, that a Tau army does not have to include a Firewarrior unit and an Imperial Guard army may include an Infantry Platoon comprised of only a single Infantry Squad.

TRANSPORT VEHICLES
As all models are considered individual units, any number of units may embark/disembark onto a single Transport vehicle, up to the vehicle's normal transport capacity.

UNIT-WIDE SPECIAL RULES
If a model normally confers a special rule onto it's unit, either via wargear (Ork Painboy) or with a special ability (Eldar Striking Scorpion Exarch with Shadowstrike), then this special rule still applies to all of the models that would normally make up his unit in a standard game, provided those models are within 6" of the model with the special rule.

SKYLEAP
The Eldar Swooping Hawk Exact Power "Skyleap" is completely nonfunctional in Kill Team.

FAITH POINTS
Someone help me on this. I have no idea.

I personally think that for the unit-wide special rules, simple is better. Trying to include rules for line of sight, etc, is just too complicated. A 6" range seems fair and easy to me, although again I haven't actually read the rules for the mission yet.

**tetrisphreak**

I wouldn't play a tervigon with 1 termagant as a kill team because it's not a legal choice. a brood of termagants is 10-30, not 1-30, and a tervigon is hq unless you have termagants in your army. Minimum- 210 pts, illegal kill team.

**ChrisCP**

Thought that was part of the special rules for Kill Team you didn't need to stick to unit requierments?

**Gorkamorka**

ChrisCP wrote:Thought that was part of the special rules for Kill Team you didn't need to stick to unit requierments?

It is not.

And another one, while I'm thinking about it. In general, what about effects like bosspoles... does a nob with one have to wound himself to use it, or should he be given a similar 6"/coherency/whatever unit range? I'd probably err on the side of not adding extra rules and making him wound himself, but its absolutely horrid for things like the vulcha boyz D3 casualties when the 'squad' assaults.

**ChrisCP**

Damn

**Sanctjud**

LIke the boss pole, CSM Icon system...
What about possessed/penal legion, do they roll their random skills individually or all at once?
Much like exarch powers that affect his unit, or Veil of Tears for harlies.

**NeoMaul**

Some people have said that there should be a rule allowing some units to go in reserve.

Such a rule already exists for certain units!

Units like Terminators, Marbo, Callidus, Chaos Daemons etc, actually say in their rules that they go in reserve and deep strike regardless of what the mission you are playing allows.

As for unit-wide special rules, I think the best thing to do is this,

Models benefit from unit-wide special rules if any of the models that were purchased together in that unit are in unit coherency with either:

the model in the unit that offers that special rule
or
another model in that unit that is in coherency with the aforementioned model

**kestral**

I would cap the max points you can spend on any one model. Allow only models worth 50 points or less, maybe vehicles worth 100 points or less. Kill teams should not involve uber models, and there are just too many rules issues that one could see coming up. Haven't read the book yet though.

**yakface**

Okay, I've got the book now and I've read the mission.

This would be my suggested list of FAQ/House Rules for the mission:

KILL TEAM FAQ & HOUSE RULES

END OF GAME LEADERSHIP TEST

Q: Is an army reduced to 'half strength' based on total number of wounds or models in the army?
A: Total number of models. So an army that starts the game with nine two-wound models would only half to start taking the end of game leadership test once it loses five full models.

Q: How do you determine if an army has been reduced to 'half strength' when it includes vehicles?
A: A vehicle counts as one model and counts as lost only if it suffers either 'destroyed' damage result.

Q: If my army is reduced only to vehicle models, what do I do about the Ld test on the start of my turns to see if the game ends?
A: Vehicles have no Ld value, so if your army only contains vehicles (or other models without a Ld value) then this test is automatically failed and you lose the game.

Possible House Rules: Alternatively, you could say that vehicles all count as having a Ld of 10 or you could assign a Ld value for vehicles based off of the 'basic' Ld value for that army (chart of 'basic' Ld values would need to be included here).
This allows for the possibility of a more vehicle-heavy Kill Team.

COMPULSORY UNITS & MANDATORY RESTRICTIONS

Q: Do armies taken for Kill-team still have to follow all the normal rules for compulsory units and mandatory restrictions in their codex?
A: Yes they do. This means, for example, that a Tau army would have to include at least one Firewarrior squad and an Imperial Guard player that wishes to take an Infantry squad in his army would have to take an Infantry Platoon of at least one Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Squads to do so.

Possible House Rule: Compulsory units and mandatory restrictions in army lists are ignored. This means, for example, that a Tau army does not have to include a Firewarrior unit and an Imperial Guard army may include an Infantry Platoon comprised of only a single Infantry Squad.
This allows for more diverse types of Kill Teams.

TRANSPORT VEHICLES

Q: As each model is considered a separate unit, how many models can embark on a transport vehicle?
A: Only one model (plus any joined Independent Characters) may embark onto any given transport vehicle.

Possible House Rule: Any number of units may embark/disembark onto a single Transport vehicle, up to the vehicle's normal transport capacity. Some embarked models may choose to disembark while others remain onboard the vehicle (i.e. you don't have to disembark every model if you wish to disembark only some of them).
This makes transport vehicles much more useful to your Kill Team.

UNIT-WIDE SPECIAL RULES

Q: If a model has a special rule, wargear, ability, etc, that confers an ability to its unit (such as an Ork Painboy with Dok's Tools, for example), who does this ability apply to in a Kill Team mission?
A: As each model is a separate unit, it only applies to the model with the ability.

Possible House Rule: If a model normally confers a rule onto its unit, then this special rule applies to all of the models that make up his unit in the codex entry, provided those models are within 6" of the model with the special rule. For example, an Ork Painboy with Dok's Tools taken as an upgrade for a Nobs mob would provide the 'Feel No Pain' special rule to all Nobs within 6" of him, provided they were taken from the codex as part of the same unit as the Painboy.
This way these 'unit-leader' models still provide their abilities to those around them.

CLOSE COMBAT

Q: How do you determine which models are 'engaged' in close combat during a Kill Team mission?
A: As each model is a separate unit, they must actually be in base contact with an enemy model in order to be 'engaged' in combat.

MORALE, PINNING AND TESTS TO REGROUP

Possible House Rule: If a rule requires a model to take a Morale/Pinning test or a test to regroup it may use the Ld value of any friendly model within 6" in order to take the test, provided that model was taken from the codex as part of the same unit. For example, if an Imperial Guard Veteran squad is taken in an army and one of the Veteran models is forced to take a morale test after losing a round of combat. If he is within 6" of the Veteran Sergeant that was part of his squad in the codex entry then he would be able to use the Sergeant's Ld of 8 for this test.
This way these 'unit-leader' models still provide their enhanced Ld to those models around them.

Possible House Rule: Any non-vehicle model hit by a shooting attack (or psychic shooting attack) but not killed must immediately take a Pinning test. If the model fails, it must immediately go to ground. However, if the model is within 6" of a friendly non-vehicle model that is not falling back or has not gone to ground itself, then it may re-roll this Pinning test if it fails. If a weapon has the 'Pinning' ability then this pinning test is automatically failed unless the model that is hit by the weapon is 'Fearless' or otherwise always passes Pinning tests/is immune to Pinning (in which case the model automatically passes the test).
This is a rule taken from Necromunda and gives models a reason to stay near each other as well as providing a reason to take 'Pinning' weapons.

Possible House Rule: Anytime a non-vehicle model is removed as a casualty, any friendly non-vehicle model within 6" that is not locked in combat must pass a Morale test at the end of that phase or will fall back. Casualties caused by close combat attacks do not count for this rule.
This rule counter-balances the previous house rule as it gives a penalty for models staying near each other and brings morale from shooting casualties back into the game.

RESERVES, DEEP STRIKE AND OUTFLANKING

Q: If a unit always arrives by Deep Strike, how is this resolved in a Kill Team mission?
A: As each model is a separate unit, each model is separately deployed on the table using the Deep Strike rules. But remember, as models in a Kill Team may not be put into Reserve, the only way a model may Deep Strike is if it has a rule which says it may always Deep Strike even in missions that don't normally allow it (such as with Chaos Daemons).

Possible House Rule: In order to speed up the game, if a player has multiple models that are arriving via Deep Strike, he may choose Deep Strike multiple models onto the table at the same time together using the standard rules for Deep Strike as if they were all part of the same unit, provided the models being deployed were chosen from the same unit entry in the codex. Once deployed on the table, these models still act as completely separate units.
This rule allows a Daemon player, for example, to Deep Strike several of his models at once into one area of the table without having to roll the scatter dice over and over again.

I don't personally think you need to say that the Doom of Malan'tai can't be used. His ability, while potent only affects units (models) within 6" and at 90 points he represents almost half the Tyranid army. So an opponent facing him simply needs to keep his guys fairly spread out and the DoM won't be able to suck the souls of more than a couple guys. Hell, a really good theme for a Kill Team mission would be a 'Kill Team' sent to kill the Doom of Malan'tai!

The rules presented above still don't address unit abilities that are dependent upon the number of models in a unit, like the Ork mob rule or Faith Points. Faith Points are particularly tricky to make an all encompassing house rule for because some of them work better when you have less models and some work better when you have more models. So I was thinking about players picking one model and then measuring any friendly models (from their unit in the codex entry) within 6" in order to make the test and/or benefit from it, but then players would be able to manipulate this pretty easily I think...although if the effects only applied to those same models within 6" then I guess it would be kind of a good balancing act.

Oh, finally I'm moving this to 'proposed rules' as I think it is more of that now then a true rules discussion anymore (IMHO).