Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's the list I wrote for my wife. She likes to play but is not so keen on army design or hobby aspect. ADD is a harsh mistress.

Dreadlord w/ dragon cloak, shield, repeater handbow(points filler mostly), Black Dragon, Deathpeircer, Armor of Eternal Servitude, Pendant of Khaeleth
572

Sorceress w/ lv2, darkstar cloak, dispel scroll
185

Sorceress w/ Lifetaker, Tome of Furion
180

5x Harpies
55

5x Harpies
55

5x Dark Riders w/ Mus.
92

5x Dark Riders w/ Mus.
92

10x Repeater Crossbowmen w/ shields
115

7x Shades w/ great weapons
126

7x Shades w/ great weapons
126

5x Cold One Knights w/ champion+ Null Talisman
166

20 Black Guard w/ command +Null Talisman
310

War Hydra
175

Total Cost 2249
CP: 7 DP:4 Model Count: 76

Keep in mind I'm not 100% on this, and it is my first full size army design for them. I'm not sure how strong DE magic is, so a lv 4 on pegasus is a solid maybe. I like the idea of a dragon lord, and I've read of others having success with one.

The Black Guard are staying, both because of their strength as a unit and the fact that I didn't spend $50 for a unit to be shelved. The Cold One Knights could be replaced as I'm not keen on taking stupidity in armies other than Lizardmen. So with the exception of the Black Guard, it's kinda MSU.

C&C please. Tear it to shreds!!!

It's not a problem at all that you want the Black Guard to stay, though 20 is a rather large size for them (people usually take 14 in a unit). You want your Black Guard unit to have the Standard of Hag Graef though. They need to strike first or they will be cut to pieces (T3 Sv5+). The Champion should be given the Crimson Death (if you aren't using it on your Dragon Lord), or could even be upgraded to Kouran (Unbreakable Black Guard).

On the Lord subject, both the Dreadlord on a Black Dragon and the Supreme Sorceress on a Pegasus are great choices. Both of them absolutely need the Pendant of Khaeleth though. Bringing both the Pendant of Khaeleth and the Armour of Eternal Servitude on your Dreadlord seems like overkill to me. The Crimson Death would probably be the best weapon for a Dreadlord on a Dragon.

When taking a Dreadlord on a Dragon, I would not field any offensive Sorceresses. It's too bad, but the current rules stimulate an all or nothing strategy when it comes to the Magic Phase. I'd suggest taking one Sorceress with 2 Dispel Scrolls and finding a place for the Ring of Hotek somewhere in your army. Your Black Guard Champion is a very good place to put it, assuming your Dreadlord has already taken the Crimson Death.

The Dark Riders need to have Repeater Crossbows. The Repeater Crossbowmen don't need Shields.

Cold One Knights are a pretty good unit, but I wouldn't take them over a second War Hydra. The War Hydra is just ridiculously undercosted and you need to take advantage of that (if you are playing competitively).

The dreadlord is a pretty standard build and should be fine. DE magic can be extremely powerful so if you want to go that route a level 4 on pegasus is a good joice and then take two more sorceresses, maybe even the cauldron. I am a big fan of speed and monsters so I personally like the dragon, but like Airmaniac suggests you might as well only take defensive magic. If you are just playing friendly games to get a feel for the army, then go ahead and try the two sorceresses.

Most people run their black guard at 7 wide and 2 or 3 deep with the banner of Hag Graef. I agree that dark riders should get repeater crossbows. I have heard that the crossbowmen end up not doing much in games and if they are only there for core fillers then you can get a unit of spearmen for cheaper. I personally like Cold One Knights, with a Ld 9 stupidity shouldn't be too much of a problem, especially for a naked unit of 5 for only 135pts.

If you drop your black guard down to 14, the cold one knights to naked, shades to 5, and change the crossbowmen to spearmen for the points, then you should have enough points to get that second hydra or if you want to have something in every phase get two repeater bolt throwers. Oh yea and the repeater crossbows for the dark riders.

I meant to have the repeaters on the dark riders, army builder changed it for some reason when I wrote the list so I need to tweak it to fit them in.

I will also write versions of this with 14 and 21 Black Guard and with or without Kouran.

Thank you for the feedback.

Most people say Kouran is too expensive for what he does. Black guard are already stubborn with Ld 9 and ItP, you can pick up a tower master with crimson death for almost half the price. I would check out some of the other DE lists too. Kirbinator and Notabot have some really good lists as does Vulcan and have more experience with DE than I do.

So here is my revision, please forgive AB2.0's formatting.

1 Dreadlord @ 580 Pts
General; Rptr Handbow Pair; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Crimson Death
Armour of Eternal Servitude
Pendant of Khaeleth
1 Black Dragon

1 Master @ 262 Pts
Rptr Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Banner of Nagarythe
1 Dark Steed

1 Sorceress @ 150 Pts
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

24 Dark Elf Warriors @ 208 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Champion
War Banner

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician

20 Black Guard @ 345 Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician; Champion
Standard of Hag Graef
Null Talisman

5 Shades @ 90 Pts
Great Weapon; Rptr Crossbow

5 Cold One Knights @ 135 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield

1 War Hydra @ 175 Pts

6 Harpies @ 66 Pts

Casting Pool: 3

Dispel Pool: 3

Models in Army: 77


Total Army Cost: 2245

Not sure how you plan on using your BSB, but I wouldn't recommend him joining a unit of dark riders. I would think about dropping a harpy for one more black guard just to get your full 3 ranks of seven. Unless that is where your mounted BSB is going. Then I quess, I don't have any suggestions. The list looks pretty good.

Black guard cap at 20, BSB is for the spearmen.

That is funny. I never thought about the limit on the black guard.

My other suggestion is to shave points for an assassin. Maybe drop 6 black guard and the dark steed and a harpy? Maybe a few warriors for a gift for the assassin too? He would be the bodyguad for the BSB.

I thought about that too, and I like the idea of having an assassin. Will look into it.

A standard and good build for an assassin is with rending stars and manbane. Oh and an extra handweapon. I also like rune of khaine and manbane with ehw. Those build need between 146 and 151 of points though.

For my two cents worth:

Dragonlord looks really good. He won't make you any friends, but he should hold up against anything the other guy can throw at you.

When I saw the spearmen were a unit of 24, I assumed the Master BSB was going there (for 5x5 and max SCR). Imagine my surprise when I double-checked and saw that he was on a dark steed! As much as I love the idea of the really maneuverable tin-can hero (Masters can achieve a 2+ AS on a Dark Steed - without using any magic points, or even resorting to heavy armor and slowing down!), the BSB is probably not the place for it, especially not with the Unbreakable banner. I think your army will do better with the Master with the spearmen.

Sure, you could put the Master with the Dark Riders. Unfortunately, for proper charge-redirection (one of their primary roles) you actually want them to flee. The Banner prevents that, and then they stand a good chance of just getting wiped out, giving your opponent a bunch of VP essentially for free.

I think the Null Talisman won't do you a lot of good. Apparently now MR doesn't work against anything that doesn't specifically target the model with MR. Area-effect spells ignore MR. The Ring of Hotek will give you a much better magic defence, and it will cover a much larger portion of the army (having a 12" radius of operation). And, best of all, it is affordable with the points saved by getting the BSB down off his horse.

Depending on what you are going to face, 20 Black Guard might be too much. In most cases, you are best off running a formation of Black Guard 7 wide (to get maximum attacks on a 5 wide SCR block). And the Black Guard wins combats mainly by killing the other guy, not by breaking him with SCR. I usually run the Black Guard in a 7x2 formation for maximum attacks in CC, with a spare rank to soak casualties. That's all the back ranks are there for, after all.

You want to decide if it is more important to have the extra +1 SCR for that rank of 6 in the back... or whatever else you could get for the 72 points they tie up. That's most of the cost of an assassin right there.

Other than that, I think your list looks pretty good. I might have to borrow it sometime...

EDIT: Don't put the Unbreakable banner in the Black Guard. They are almost unbreakable as-is, and it is cheaper to give them Kouran instead. The spearmen need the boost (both from the Master and from becoming Unbreakable) more.

I forgot about the null talisman.

@Vulcan: I think you missed his post about the BSB was going with his spearmen.

Whoops! So I did!

But... if he's going with the spearmen, then why the Dark Steed? He won't benefit from the extra maneuverability that way, and it makes him vulnerable to being shot out (since he is on a mount, amid models on foot) , doesn't it? Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak, and HW+Shield means that he is alread AS 2+, is it really that necessary to bring it up to 1+?

If you're going to do it, go all the way and use a Cold One. AS 0+ and two S4 attacks might be worth the extra points and the risk of Stupidity.

Mounted models cannot be picked out from infantry in 7th edition. So he hangs out with them with a better save and an extra attack.

With only a 5+ save won't the black guard get shot up before hitting combat?

If you've seen them do well then I'll bump them down and grab an assasin.

The plan is to have your harpies, shades, and dark riders distract the shooters. Also your opponent should be more worried about the dragon, hydra, and probably the cold one knights as they are moving faster.

As a side note, I thought the max rank bonus you could get was +3 and would the mounted BSB take the place of a model in the first and second rank?

And about Vulcan's idea about the cold one, he would also cause fear.

Max bonus doesn't mean max models. You can have any amount of ranks, but any after the 4th(3rd bonus) are just wounds filler. I forgot the mount when I wrote the spearmen, so ideally they would be 23 strong instead of having that straggler.

I considered adding Kouran to have 2 unbreakable units, but I would rather have the weapon on my general. I'm over at my mothers house tonight, so I'll do another rewrite when I get home later.

Cavalry models displace 2 soldiers in infantry, but count as a model in both ranks for sake of bonus, so the horses ass in the second rank counts as a 5th model to qualify for rank bonus. This was the conclusion we arrived at over on warhammer-empire.com after a lengthy discussion, as almost all characters in units should be mounted for the extra save and attack.

I'm excited about the dragon as I've never painted one, and I have my airbrush setup now, so that should be a fun week.

Since I have to paint her army for her I've been kinda speed painting lately, doing base colors and a wash of soft body black over that and then doing skin. Turns out airbrushing chainmail on crossbowmen makes it 1000x faster and you don't get the bubbles I was getting with a brush. After I finish up her fist dark riders unit I'll post pics of them. I kit bashed them from DE warriors and Glade Riders.

Yea I thought was the rule, I was just making sure. So if you wanted to only make 4 ranks to get the points for an assassin you could.

I am looking forward to see the army, as mine just continues to gather dust. Fortunately, I have one more busy week, then a week where I can try to get some things done with my armies.

Here is revision #2. Dropped Black Guard to 14, added an assassin and made minor tweaks

1 Dreadlord @ 580 Pts
General; Rptr Handbow Pair; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Crimson Death
Armour of Eternal Servitude
Pendant of Khaeleth
1 Black Dragon

1 Master @ 262 Pts
Rptr Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Banner of Nagarythe
Dark Steed

1 Sorceress @ 150 Pts
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician

23 Dark Elf Warriors @ 347 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Champion
War Banner
1 Dark Elf Assassin
2ndWeapon
Rune of Khaine
Manbane

14 Black Guard @ 217 Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician; Champion

5 Cold One Knights @ 135 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield

5 Shades @ 90 Pts
Great Weapon; Rptr Crossbow

1 War Hydra @ 175 Pts

5 Harpies @ 55 Pts

Casting Pool: 3

Dispel Pool: 3

Models in Army: 70


Total Army Cost: 2245

Looks good. I still think you need the banner of Hag Graef for your black guard. You could drop the musician from the black guard and rune of khaine for it or you could drop the musician and champ from the black guard plus the musician and standard bearer from the spearmen to get it. I like the second option, since the spearmen are unbreakable anyway and you can only get the +1 CR for one banner. The black guard don't really need spend the points for just one more attack from a champ and should win combat just from the kills so probably don't need the tie breaker, besides they are stubborn at Ld 9. I think that should get you the ASF banner and still be under 2250.

Added Hag Graeg, dropped warrior standard w/ war banner and musician which puts me at 2246.

Forgot about the war banner with warriors, which isn't needed as much if they are unbreakable.


EDIT: here's a link to the models so far. Kit bashed an assassin tonight after deciding to take one.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/280874.page#1359160

Nice, pics . I love being able to connect an army list to the actual models!

I'm going to leave a comment on the P&M thread since I really don't know about dark elves as far as army lists go :-/. It's neat that your wife is not only willing to play, but willing to play one of the "bad" armies of the WHFB world (my wife wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole!)

I didn't know the rules had changed on mounted characters in infantry blocks, my bad...

I don't know if I want to reccomened going for the Cold One for the BSB or not. You get an additional +1 AS and attack. Since he's going to stick with the spearmen, the lower speed isn't a factor. Plus he has Fear, which sorta gives the unit Fear as well. But there's a very good chance he will go Stupid once in the game, and that's going to be a LOT of points sitting around that turn. Still... it would be nasty...

Kouran is uneeded for the Black Guard 99% of the time. Ld 9 Stubborn is practically unbreakable as it is.

The Black Guard with the Banner of Hag Graef and a champion with the Crimson Death is one of our nastier unit builds. In a 7-wide formation, you get 12 S4 attacks and 3 S6 attacks, all with ASF. The champion can even take a challenge with a good chance of winning, one wound or not. Since Crimson Death is on your Lord, you could use Soulrender for 3 S5 AP attacks... for 10 points less. Being a GW means nothing when you're ASF!

Getting shot out is a risk with the Black Guard - indeed, with any of our unit choices with the sole exception of Cold One Knights (with a 2+ AS, best unit save in our book). What we have to do is put pressure on the shooters to shoot at other things - like (as was mentioned) big scary monsters and faster moving units. Or you can use our screening units (Harpies and Dark Riders) to go into CC with the shooters as fast as possible - turn 2 should be doable - thus preventing them from shooting while the harder hitters (first Cold One Knights and Hydras by 3, then hopefully our infantry on turn 4) get in charge range.

Don't scrimp too much on the Spearmen's SCR. Just because they are Unbreakable doesn't mean they don't need it. After all, spearmen don't win fights with kills - they are not hard enough for that. They win with SCR, and that is their primary contribution to our order of battle. Besides, they shouldn't be going into battle alone... and a high SCR might just make the difference between holding or breaking for the other units involved in the fight.


But I can't find anything I would want to take off to make those changes... so I guess that means that you have a solid list going there.

Thanks for all the feedback. In somewhat related news my wife massacred me at 500 points today against my lizardmen. She had 10 crossbowmen, lv2 sorceress w/ lifetaker, 5 vaniila CoK and 5 dark riders w/ xbows.

She rolled 1 and 3 for spells, and had word of pain on my General/spearmen unit the whole game. Chillwind destroyed my razordons in 2 turns, and xbowmen ate a unit of skinks.

I got her dark riders down to 2 and CoK down to 3, all wounds being done by my general and spearmen at Ws1(although first round of combat against the knights I forgot that saurus have 2 attacks each!!!).

It was good fun.

I'm not sure what to feel. Sometimes it might be good to get spanked by your wife.