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In discussions revolving around the new Tyranids Codex, people continually argue that you should not treat it as most other books, looking at units in isolation, but you should instead look at how units synergise together. Fair enough, I have no issue with this. I do, however, feel that people are over-stating this. Not every unit synergises with any/many other units that well, or at least not in my mind. Are people over-stating this, am I under-appreciating the synergies, or is my interpretation of synergy completely wrong?

The synergies in Eldar and Tau are quite obvious. In Eldar, you have Fire Dragons popping Tanks, Dire Avengers firing upon infantry, then Striking Scorpions charging the survivors (a highly simplified example, not having ever played Eldar myself). In Tau, the way that Markerlights have such a dramatic impact on darn near every unit in the Codex, this synergy is also quite apparent. I am not saying that the Tyranids do not have this, but it does not seem as pronounced to me as people are making it out to be. Perhaps the easiest way to illustrate my thinking is to simply summarise the units. I will not touch upon Special Characters, as I have never used any of them and can only theoryhammer. I will also not touch on the impact of Synapse, as this is different from synergy. Rather than enhancing your units, it allows you to actually play the game, rather than the rules playing the game for you. Synapse is to Tyranids what Phase Out is to Necrons.

HQ:
Hive Tyrant. Synergy out the wazoo. Hive Commander with Outflanking/Deep Striking units and Old Adversary with assault elements ensure the Hive Tyrant gets the most out of your units. Paroxism is often cited, but I see it as being more akin to an Orbital Stike that does not scatter and can be redirected every turn: it does not so much enhance your troops as it is an absurdly destructive weapon that utterly cripples your opponent.

Tyrant Guard. They have as much synergy as every other unit in the game does. HQs in other armies are ICs that join units: they are a unit that the non-IC HQ can join. Ablative wounds are not especially synergistic in my mind, unless you want to argue that Grots are highly synergistic because a Mega-Armoured Warboss can potentially use them as ablative wounds (intentionally absurd example: no need to point this out).

Tervigon. Another that has obvious synergies, but these are far more narrow. The Tervigon takes our utterly useless Termigants and makes them worth twice their points. Catalyst gives it limited synergy with other units, but this unit is primarily designed to make Termigants work. They do make Termigants awesome, but on the other side of the coin those same Termigants are pretty bad without the Tervigon. To me, this is not so much synergy as it is a marriage of convenience. The Tervigon is like a Land Raider Redeemer. Sure, it is nice by itself, but since you have some Assault Terminators anyway, and they suck as foot-sloggers, you may as well combine them to make a super-unit. No, I am not suggesting Termigants are in the same league as Assault Terminators

Tyranid Prime. This is one that gets on my nerves. The bugs finally get an IC, and he has brilliant synergy with the Tyranid Warriors --- he is a true force multiplier with them! Unfortunately, he has little synergy with everything else. You can pop him into a unit of Biovores or Hive Guard, for example, to give them ablative wounds and cheap Synapse, but that is not synergy in my view.

Hive Guard. The best transport-hunters in the codex. In the respect that they are the only reliable way to take out AV11-12, they synergise well with the rest of the army.

Lictors. Their Pheromone Trail is clearly meant to synergise in a similar way to the Hive Tyrant's Hive Commander, but in practicality it does not work. Since there is no way to guarantee it arrives on the table before your Deep Strikers, it is too unreliable to say that it synergises well. It has limited synergy with the Mawloc, who has the most reliable chance of Deep Striking later in the game, but that requires too many unreasonable assumptions (such as your opponent ignoring both the Lictor and the Mawloc long enough to set up this combo).

Venomthropes. A pure support unit that has clear applications of synergy, but in practicality is just an ablative wound for your MCs. A whole brood could be scary for many opponents, but you could just buy another Carnifex for those points. Because your opponent is guaranteed to direct lascannons/whatever at it from turn one, its assault-oriented synergies are unlikely to come into play (opponent/metagame dependent, of cause).

Zoanthropes. The best unit in the Codex for taking out Land Raiders/Monoliths, they synergise in the respect that they fill a unique niche. That they are so readily shut-down by many armies, however, puts them on shaky ground for many players.

Pyrovores. Um. Well, they do fulfill a unique niche in that they have Heavy Flamers. Yeah, I did not convince myself either.

Tyranid Warriors. I cannot see much in the way of synergy here. They seem to suffer from the `we can to everything' syndrome. They can to a little shooting and/or a little assault, but they do not have any direct synergies with other units.

Genestealers. These guys offer no synergies to other units, and are unlikely (or incapable) or receiving synergy from most other units most of the time. Just as in their fluff, they go about their own business separate to the rest of the swarm.

Termagants. They let you take Tervigons as Troops? Yeah, I am struggling on this one. They can benefit a lot from other units, but do not bring much else in return.

Hormagaunts. They benefit less from synergy than Termigants with the Tervigon offering little to them, but a Hive Tyrant does give the unit a lot. They are an excellent MC-killer, but that is about the extent of the synergy they offer.

Ripper Swarms. These little blighters are sorely under-appreciated. Some people love to boast the Venomthrope giving a 5+ to their Termigants, but that is a waste of points --- use him on the MCs. Rippers give your Termigants a 4+ cover save, cannot be taken out by a single Lascannon hit, and are such low priority targets that your opponent will hate wasting shots on them. Beyond this cover save, they offer little, but this makes them just as synergistic as a Venomthrope, for less points.

Tyranid Shrikes. See Tyranid Warriors and make them faster. These guys are a quick, respectable assault unit, but I do not see the synergy.

Raveners. I cannot see how these guys synergise with anything else.

Sky-Slasher Swarms. I see these guys as having pretty limited application. They could screen Gargoyles, but that is about it.

Gargoyles. They fit much the same role as the Hormagaunts, albeit probably better.

Harpies. With the number of `what is this unit supposed to actually do?' debates out there, I think it is safe to say no one has found the synergy.

Spore Mines. An annoyance, but I do not consider it synergistic.

Carnifeci. Does `fire magnet' count as synergy? A Carnifex has the potential to take out big tanks in a similar role to the Zoanthropes, but is probably a lot less likely to get the chance. A Venomthrope can give it an ablative wound, but it is probably better in a Mycetic Spore and benefiting from Hive Commander. Either way, other units would be better for this role.

Biovores. They do not really have a unique role, and do not provide anything for other units, so lack any form of synergy.

Trygons. Much the same as the Carnfex. Loses the long-range shooting options, but is better value for points.

Mawloc. Much the same as the Trygon, albeit a tactically different purpose.

Tyrannofex. It is the hardest-to-kill model in the army and has the longest-range anti-tank. It is also the least reliable anti-tank shooting, which means it does not really have as much of a niche as it may sound. Internally, its own weapons do not synergise well together, making this unit a bit of a confusing mess. I do not see any synergy.

What is my problem? As far as I can tell, the Tyranid HQs act as force multipliers, none of them benefit more than a selection of units in the Codex, and I do not see much synergy in the codex beyond them. For all the people going on and on about how the synergies of this Codex promote synergisation beyond the most synergistic synergy you have ever before synergised, I am finding this very difficult to comprehend. Am I failing to see the synergies, is my interpretation of synergy flawed, am I under-stating how good they are, or are people just over-stating the fact and making it seem far larger than it really is? This is not meant to be a whine thread: I am taking the assumption that I am wrong and want people to point out where I am getting it wrong. Also, this is not a `this unit sucks' thread: I am looking only at the perception of synergy. I have written off some very good units because, despite being good units, I do not believe they provide much synergy to the rest of the Codex.

"Synergy" is overused by people who have heard it on the internet and say it too much to hide their ignorance about the codex.

I think you're spot on that people have been overstating this fact.

That said I think there is something to it. Synergy basically means units working together are superior to units working apart, one acts as a force multiplier to the other. This definition applies to any army of course but more so to nids because of something you discarded, synapse.

Synapse requires pairs or teams of units based on relative movement rates. Gargoyles for examplle are fantastic but require synapse to be able to charge people so you need some kind of fast moving synapse, shrikes, harpies, the parasite, etc. That's a "synergy" of two units. The synapse creature gives a boost to the gargoyles and the gargoyles give a boost to the synapse creature (usually in the form of providing a cover save).

There are a few more obvious combinations in the list (and perhaps a few more waiting to be discovered) whereby one unit buffs another and perhaps vice versa i.e.

Venomthropes buff MC's, MC's block LOS to the thrope.

tervigon's bugg termagants that work as an assault screen for it, tervigons can also buff MC's with catalyst or onslaught

Swarmlord buffs anything it likes but principally fast assault troops (i.e. gargoyles) and deep striking/outflanking troops who can go after the shoting units that are a threat to the swarmlord.

I don't know if there are more per se in nids than any oither codex but you have to think about them more closely because of synapse.

I don't consider synapse to be a synergistic concept, but more of a catalyst.

To the OP: I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but synergy is not, and should not, be exclusive to their simple abilities. How one model makes an opponent react is often times more important than anything else. I'll bring 10 Termagants to soak up a round or two of shooting, not necessary because of the way they interact with my troops, but more to direct the fire of my opponent where I want it to go turn 1.

I don't want to discredit your analysis, because it is a great start, but I feel there is a lot more to synergy than just your army (that is, your opponents army) and understanding that is one key to victory.

I've been saying this about Tau for awhile. Synergy doesn't cut it. It doesn't matter if you're Tau, or Eldar, or 'Nids, if IG and Swolves have 8 units that can rock face all on their own, and you need 3 units to rock face, you're fighting a losing battle.

Not only does it mean your army is doing less overall damage per round, but the loss of any part of the synergistic web is broken it dramatically reduces the effectiveness of your army. To use your example, if your fire dragons are wiped out or stranded by having their transport destroyed, then your Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions are left hanging in the breeze.

Toss rippers in with venomthropes to get a 4+ cover save out in front. (Swarms get an extra +1 cover save). Slightly more synergy, though I don't have the slightest idea whether it's worth it.

I personally like the idea of the lictor/mawloc combo, not because it necessarily works before one of them dies, but because it forces the opponent to deal with either the mawloc or the lictor right now, and dealing with either in 1-2 turns should take a great deal more effort than their points cost would indicate. (Screwing up target priority is always useful.)

I'll certainly agree that the synergy hype is... well... largely hype. That said, I think that even what you've listed is more synergy than other codexes, even if only slightly. Honestly, I'm not especially surprised by the fact that the increase is slight. Synergy is wonderful in theory, but it makes the game horribly difficult to balance point-wise. Every army has its "sweet spot," points-wise, but a truly synergy-heavy army should be completely pathetic at low points and almost unbeatable at high points. (Ever play Star Wars minis, as the Mandalorians? A couple of regular guys or a couple of commanders are decent, but put them together and suddenly somebody who's never played before can beat a veteran easily.)

There is:

1. Synergy, as well-defined by bravelybravesirrobin. Some synergies are obvious, such as Ancient Enemy on the Hive Tyrant, or the Synapse rule, rules that directly enhance the combination. Other synergies are less obvious, such as the Lash of Submission, indirectly leveraging blast and template weapons. Some synergies are tactics.

2. Flexibility, often called "duality" by the mentally deficient who can't comprehend more than two roles, or general terms for multiple roles. Flexibility includes being able to engage a variety of targets, achieve a variety of goals, and to do so in a variety of ways.

3. Redundancy, aka "Spam" or the power of large numbers. More is better, though resources are scarce.

These three principles must be balanced across the army and its constituent units and their constituent models. Too much in any one direction and you end up with a rock-paper-scissors situation. Too much synergy at the expense of flexibility makes the army or unit brittle and easily destroy once some of its constituents are destroyed. Too much flexibility, and you can't apply it well to a particular strategy because you will lack efficiency. Too much redundancy and you end up with a one-trick pony that earns diminishing returns.

You need to balance the flexibility of units against that of the army: an entire army of generalist units works, an entire army of specialist units works, a hybrid army ends up lacking redundancy for the specialists, and power from the generalists.

Fizyx wrote:I don't consider synapse to be a synergistic concept, but more of a catalyst.

Depends what you've been hearing about the new nid codex.

If you've been hearing "the nids have the best synergy of an codex" then a) I disagree with that assesment and b ) yers you'd be right, synapse wouldn't be a synergistic bonus.

If however you've been hearing "you need to consider synergy when building nids" or "nids are reliant on synergy" then synapse is surely a factor in why they're reliant on synergistic combinations to work.

Thank you for the excellent responses.

My main reason for excluding Synapse is that people have been saying that synergy is something new to the Codex. For people who only played Nidzilla/Stealer Shock before, sure, Synapse is something new, but Synapse has been a major part of the Nids for quite a few years (at least third edition; it seems to have been different in second). Since reliance on Synapse is not new to the Codex, it clearly has no relevance to the Codex ``now'' being one reliant on synergy (implying that the reliance on synapse before was not synergistic).

I think that came out a little convoluted, but I hope I made sense then.

I also look at Nids from the perspective that Instinctive Behaviour is a handicap, rather than Synapse is a bonus. From this perspective, there is nothing synergistic about Synapse, rather it is a necessary evil. It is like taking a salad to a barbecue. Everyone knows a barbecue is all about meat, but here is this damned bowl of green stuff. You do not want it; you do not need it. If you do not have it, though, the women will all complain and the barbecue breaks down. Synapse is a salad, and Instinctive Behaviour are those who do not understand that the Tyranids --- I mean a barbecue --- is all about eating meat. Personally, I see a lot of synergy between sausages, bread and sauce, but my lunch goes down just as well with or without the salad.

I think you need to look at the whole army and not individual units. Like you said warriors try and do a bit of everything and come off as slightly mediocore. However combine them with an MC heavy list and suddenly your opponent has problems trying to deal with both (they both need anti tank fire to take them out). And the threat posed by each one individually is significant.

This is just 1 example. I agree that nids really rely on synergy to make their lists work, but it's definately not the most important factor when making an army.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Fizyx wrote:I don't consider synapse to be a synergistic concept, but more of a catalyst.

Depends what you've been hearing about the new nid codex.

If you've been hearing "the nids have the best synergy of an codex" then a) I disagree with that assesment and b ) yers you'd be right, synapse wouldn't be a synergistic bonus.

If however you've been hearing "you need to consider synergy when building nids" or "nids are reliant on synergy" then synapse is surely a factor in why they're reliant on synergistic combinations to work.

Looking back on my post, I guess I never made that clear.

The Tyranid codex, in my opinion, is no more "synergistic" than it was before, nor is it much more (if any) synergistic than the majority of codices out there.

I will still take a good unit because it is good. If I skip on a good unit (e.g., Genestealers) because of any perceived lack of Synergy, I am doing my opponent a favor.

I refuse to take a not-good unit unless the "synergy" in question really does buff both parties. Taking one unit merely to buff another unit is not synergy.

I feel that the new Tyranid codex tried to be synergistic, but didn't go all the way. For instance, Hive Commander + Trygon + Raveners. If Raveners could come out of the Trygon's hole the same turn it strikes as well as assault the turn it comes in, then Hive Commander could be great because the Trygon and Raveners would have a much better chance of coming in on the same turn and pulling off the maneuver. The Tyrant would benefit from having the enemy focus its shooting on a different target for a turn or two while the Tyrant walks up to wreck face. Instead we have a nice rule in hive Commander, that really does nothing but help bring in Spore Pods on turn 2. Yeah, it is nice, but it really doesn't have a synergistic feel.

I think allot of the synergy if you will is creative tactical use of your units. For example I happen to think large swarms of gargoyles, tervigons (making gaunts), termaguants, and to a lesser degree hormaguants synergize incredibly well with the mawloc. Because with the guants and gargoyles you can easily swarm and surround enemy units thereby allowing your mawloc to deep strike and kill the surrounded unit since the unit can't move out of the way. Granted I this tactic depends on whether or not mawlocs can DS onto a unit, (not a nid player but face them allot and to me the rule seems pretty clear that you can DS onto units with mawloc)

Also I think synergy depends what type of game you are playing. The less competitive the game the more synergistic the army is imo. I hope I'm not derailing but this is quite an interesting thread.

I was charged by 3 battlewagons full of orks head on and they died while barely making an impact. 20-30 gants, a tevigon, a tyrant, a heavy hitter of some kind, and a toxathrope working together is a terrifying force - far more than the stats or points of the individual creatures would indicate. Tyranids don't spam well, because every creature needs others to work to full effect, but when they can work together they are formidable.

Uhh...how do they not need/have synergy? Half the army gives some sort of bonus to other units.

Examples of synergy -> Hive Tyrant with hive commander improving the odds of Droppod Zoanthropes and outflanking Genestealers coming in. Both come in on same turn, zoans land, destroy a transport and genestealers attack its contents. 3 units right there.

What about those hormagaunts? How exactly do they get to those units inside transports.

What about deathleaper -ld move + broodlord + enemy psychic attacks to protect units?

What about sending in hormagaunts first into assault in cover so the genestealers can strike at initiative the following turn?

And I didnt even mention Synapse once.

In my opinion, the entire OP is useless. Raveners - Cannot see how they synergise? Uhh, T4 5+ save ld6 is going to have them do what on their own?

I honestly dont know; What would be taller, a venomthrope or a Tervigon?

Compared to the 4ed version I think the new codex has more units or rules whose function is to create a synergistic combination rather then just kill stuff. However I think this was a concious effort to compensate for a lack of transports and vehicles.

So sure -- lotsa synergy in the new tyranid book but it doesn't seem nearly as useful as the combination of a 35-55 point transport and a scoring troop choice (especially those choices with melta guns, cc ability or both). Maybe that's why it seems overstated to most folks?

Compared to the 4ed version I think the new codex has more units or rules whose function is to create a synergistic combination rather then just kill stuff.

I agree. There are a lot of obvious synergies, such as the Tyrant's powers that buff units, the Prime Warriors, etc. There's also units like the Tyrant Guard, Venomthrope and Tervigon that significantly benefit other units with their rules.

There are degrees of synergy in this game. In some cases, it's blatantly obvious. Tervigons provide bonuses to Gants (and only to Gants) which are very powerful. Pedro Kantor makes Sternguard scoring. The rules specifically describe these, they're not hard to spot.

In other cases, synergy is more a matter of combining strengths to mitigate weaknesses. Tervigons benefit from having a mess of Gants around them to keep them protected from assaults.

I think there are many reasons people mention "synergy" when it comes to Tyranids.

One reason is that they do seem to legitimately have more units that enhance each other than other lists.

Another reason is that they also do have a lot of units that are fairly specialized, and they have fewer obvious answers to vehicles than most lists, meaning you can't just spam the most undercosted units and win.

Lastly, it's popular among the internets' clueless sophist community to say things like "use synergy" and "use tactics" when they're basically just injecting a plot device into their autobiography that explains why they're so gosh darn awesome at 40K. There's a baseline of noise on any topic you have to filter out.

So, bottom line, the Nids do need to work "as whole" more than other armies, which is actually a nice connection to their fluff. That said, the "synergy" that you're looking for is not as mysterious as it might seem. It's not like you can push up-down-up-down-left-right-gant-gargoyle and you get 100 free lives. It's the usual stuff, try to take units that buff each other, try to fill in the holes, try to field the most cost effective units that cover all the bases, and while you're at it, try to do something that overwhelms something in the enemy's capabilities.

All I could see in OP is SYNERGY a thousand times over.

But I don't think Nids are meant to synergise. They're meant to hit hard with a strategy and do it however you want. But I don't think one unit needs to cover another with "SYNERGY!"

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:All I could see in OP is SYNERGY a thousand times over.

But I don't think Nids are meant to synergise. They're meant to hit hard with a strategy and do it however you want. But I don't think one unit needs to cover another with "SYNERGY!"

Of course, combining different units that support one another and your chosen Nid strategy would form the definition of synergy. The Nid list is all about using bugs that make each other better.

Phryxis wrote:
So, bottom line, the Nids do need to work "as whole" more than other armies, which is actually a nice connection to their fluff.

Although I agree with you, the synergistic units (Tyrants, Lictors, Venomthropes, etc) seem to cost far too many points for what they can reasonably do (Tyrant), don't work *that* well (Lictor, pheromone trail special rule is lulz), or take up the FOC slots that you needed for other stuff (any elite that isn't a Zoanthrope or Hive Guard).

It seems to me that if you're really trying to build an army that capitalizes on synergy options, you've got either a very, very small army or one with an obviously glaring deficiency in some area.

sourclams wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
So, bottom line, the Nids do need to work "as whole" more than other armies, which is actually a nice connection to their fluff.

Although I agree with you, the synergistic units (Tyrants, Lictors, Venomthropes, etc) seem to cost far too many points for what they can reasonably do (Tyrant), don't work *that* well (Lictor, pheromone trail special rule is lulz), or take up the FOC slots that you needed for other stuff (any elite that isn't a Zoanthrope or Hive Guard).

It seems to me that if you're really trying to build an army that capitalizes on synergy options, you've got either a very, very small army or one with an obviously glaring deficiency in some area.

Im not so sure. I think that to make it work well you have to balance the cost of force multipliers with lots of cheap models. A tyrant with wings and old adversary is overcosted by itself. A tyrant with wings and old adversary supporting a big unit of cheap gargoyles or two is suddenly much scarier for not many more points.

Tervigons and venomthropes arent too hot on their own. Tervigons and venomthropes behind 40 gants isnt something that you can just forget about.

Also rending and poisoned attacks work very well together, so the fact that you can have both on WS6, I6, relatively cheap outflanking unit is fantastic.

There isnt any point using for expensive force multipliers with other expensive stuff, because you just dont get enough out of it. Old Adversary and fexes or warriors and venomthropes are ok, but its just not using them well enough. Rerolling to hit with lots of models that auto-wound on 6's to hit is very good, as is giving 5+ coves saves and defensive grenades to unarmoured, low T, fearless troops that usually die very easily to massed small arms fire and no retreat.

All of that can be done for not too many points and seems pretty synergistic to me.

It seems to me that if you're really trying to build an army that capitalizes on synergy options, you've got either a very, very small army or one with an obviously glaring deficiency in some area.

I dunno, I think there are plenty of options that "synergize" and are also worth taking. The big one, IMO, is Warrior Prime with Warriors, probably in Spod.

The Warrior Prime is probably the most cost effective HQ, even moreso when he's buffing Warriors, and Warriors are a very nice Troops choice.

Also, while the Tervigon is a fantastic value for the points, and synergizes great with Gants, it's a very passive, one dimensional sort of unit, which demands the pessimistic version of "synergy" which is "compensation." You have to support your Terv/Gants with other units, but if you do so successfully, you've got a very nice, cheap model there to anchor your list.

I agree, tho, that some of the units are crappy and overcosted (Lictors), some are ok, but use bad FOC slots (Venomthropes), and some are mediocre for their points (Tyrants). Still, at the end of the day, the Nids are a list that plays very much "as a whole" rather than "as a bunch of isolated toughguys who happen to add up to the points limit" (i.e. Space Wolves).

Night Lords wrote:In my opinion, the entire OP is useless.

In my opinion, you did not read the post. I have this crazy notion that the point of this forum is for people to help other people to become better players. While I do not wish to deny you your `lol you suck, post count +1' or the `I am totally awesome lol, ePenis +1', I feel your post would have been more constructive if you had (a) read the OP, and (b) decided to share your wisdom. If you try reading the OP, I believe you will find some marvelous gems, such as `Hive Guard pop transports' and `I am probably wrong, please tell me why'. Then again, I am useless, so what does my opinion matter?

The overusage of the word "Synergy" is Tyranid players trying to convince themselves that their units aren't complete crap, and obviously the reason why the units in every other army seem to be incredibly more efficient for the points is because you're not "looking at the big picture."


Here's a hint: Lash princes (for half the cost of a hive tyrant) are synergistic as hell. So are boyz. And guardsmen. And every other unit in all the other codices that were written properly.

Broken Loose wrote:The overusage of the word "Synergy" is Tyranid players trying to convince themselves that their units aren't complete crap, and obviously the reason why the units in every other army seem to be incredibly more efficient for the points is because you're not "looking at the big picture."


Here's a hint: Lash princes (for half the cost of a hive tyrant) are synergistic as hell. So are boyz. And guardsmen. And every other unit in all the other codices that were written properly.

Again in not so sure.

300pts nets you a scoring MC with S5, T6, W6 with poisoned attacks, furious charge that poops out a troops choice every turn and can give a nearby unit FNP, AND 21 scoring and fearless GEQ with poisoned attacks and furious charge. That seems pretty good for about the same cost as a decked out plague marine squad in a rhino. Two of these is pretty all the footslogging troops you'll ever need. Stick a venomthrope or two near them and everything get a 5+ cover save and defensive grenades? That just isnt easy to remove no matter how you look at it and its about the same cost as the troop choices of most other armies.

Again hive tyrants are expensive, but hormagaunts and gargoyles are not.

The only problem then is cracking open vehicles, which only hive guard and zoans can do with any reliability. Everything else dies to buckets full of poisoned or auto-wounding attacks from fearless hordes.

Incorrect. S6 with poisoned attacks is a waste of points since the poison's 4+. It can't poop out a troops choice "every turn," rather, it has a chance of spawning termagants or turning itself off permanently. Granting FNP is a psychic ability that can be hooded or result in Perils (as opposed to painboys, medics, apothecaries, etc).

Also, termagants are anything but GEQ. Guardsmen get 5+ armor, longer range, Orders, grenades (!!!), and do not require an HQ to be within 12" in order to coherently function. Fearless is a bonus of keeping your gigantic bullet magnet alive and not an inherent property of your Ld6 wastes of life.

And then, in order to take this MC as scoring, you have to purchase a squad of them. This raises the cost of entry even higher. Oh, a venomthrope is required to give them a save which daemon princes, avatars, and C'tan take for granted? That further raises the cost of entry. "All the footslogging troops you'll ever need?" All I have to do is park a chimera full of melta vets a foot away and call it a day.

See, if termagants were truly GEQ, they could assault the car and take it out with grenades. Of course, if you purchase hive guard or zoanthropes, that further raises the cost of entry. As you admitted, only they can do it with any reliability, as well. In other words, if I can kill all 3 of your maximum 3 model footslogging elites choices, I am entirely immune to return fire for the full duration of the game. In this case, "synergy" means "incredibly weak against indirect fire for fear of losing the game to a single salvo."

Finally, in the case that I melta your tervigon off the table (which WILL happen), your precious pointsink deals 3D6 hits to every single termagant brood within reach. There's practically no point to splitting fire, I get rewarded greatly for just killing the one unit.

Tervigons are incredibly overrated and overhyped.

Nids have a lot of synergy. Look at the following brick.

Here comes the Swarmlord with his Tyrant Guard. They are getting FNP from a Tervigon and cover saves from a Venomthrope, while the Swarmlord lowers the enemy's ws to 1 and gives some charging bugs preferred enemy and runs at the same time because another Tervigon hit him with the run + shoot power, not to mention the fact that he's making nearby folks fearless with Synapse.

Or let's say you want to charge a big bug, but it's got the power where you need leadership to do so, but there's a broodlord or two around, so your leadership is lowered, or the Deathleaper is on the board, so you can't. Or the Doom of Malantai is nearby and you die and it grows.

To say nothing of Spods + lictors, lash whips + acid blood, or any of the other ways this book works.

Now, I'll agree that people use it in an empty sort of way, but if you seriously look at the book's synergy you can't help but be impressed.

S6 with poisoned attacks is a waste of points since the poison's 4+.

Are you reading the rules?

First off, if Poison is already 4+ or better, you get to re-roll wounds. Not a major improvement, but nice to have.

But really, the main reason you buy it is because it now confers Poison to all Gants within 6". On average, that's going to be 24 Gants pooped, plus however many you bought. That's, let's say, 35 points right there. That's worth it.

Also, termagants are anything but GEQ.

They are when they've got Furious Charge, Poisoned attacks, FNP and Counter-Attack. And when they can pop up onto the board, move-shoot-assault.

It's almost like they become better when combined with a Tervigon. It's almost like... Synergy...

See, if termagants were truly GEQ, they could assault the car and take it out with grenades.

They're S4 on the charge, they can hurt the Chimera. Plus they've got a MC walking along with them that will ruin the Chimera in CC.

Finally, in the case that I melta your tervigon off the table (which WILL happen)

Did you read the part about 6W? You can get 3x Meltas in a squad. You'll need to bring a good 4x squad's worth of shooting onto one Tervigon to kill it.

A nicely upgraded Tervigon with 16 Gant buddies is 300 points. The Tervigon itself is only 220.

A squad of Melta-Vets is about 155. Four would be 620. Congrats, you just killed 220 points with 620.

Not to mention the fact that if you want to do this Meltagun work, you have to get there. If you're there, you're within 12". If you're within 12", and you didn't just kill the Tervigon, you're getting assaulted. If you get assaulted by a Tervigon, your GEqs will lose 100% of the time. If you're still inside the Chimera, then the front of your hull is MUCH closer than 12", meaning the Terv will definitely assault your vehicle, and the Gants will be well positioned to block the exits.

"incredibly weak against indirect fire for fear of losing the game to a single salvo."

This is the only part of your post that has any real proximity to reality. No question, Tyranids are vulnerable to the long range pie plate party that Guard can generate.

That said, I'd point out a few things:

1) Everyone has trouble with the Guard pie plate party. It's easy to say you can alpha strike an army off the table, cause in some cases, you just can. That's not Tyranid specific.
2) Pie plates are nice, but they still only put 1W on a model at a time. You have very, very little chance of killing, say, a T-Fex with one tank's shooting. You've only got 7 turns, max, to do 6W.
3) Spods. They've got S6 shooting, they're cheap, you can drop one behind a pair of tanks, let the Spod whack on one, let Zoanthropes blow up the other (from any side, really). Chances are, those Zoans+Spod cost less than the Russ they just killed.
4) Trygons and Mawlocs. They just appear in the middle of your tanks with a lot of wounds, and start killing stuff. Again, pie plates do one wound per shot, max. Without support, the tanks will start dying.

Elric of Grans wrote:

Night Lords wrote:In my opinion, the entire OP is useless.

In my opinion, you did not read the post. I have this crazy notion that the point of this forum is for people to help other people to become better players. While I do not wish to deny you your `lol you suck, post count +1' or the `I am totally awesome lol, ePenis +1', I feel your post would have been more constructive if you had (a) read the OP, and (b) decided to share your wisdom. If you try reading the OP, I believe you will find some marvelous gems, such as `Hive Guard pop transports' and `I am probably wrong, please tell me why'. Then again, I am useless, so what does my opinion matter?

In your opinion, I didnt read the post? Uhh, ok.

OP = Original Post, I dont care what dakka comes up with, common sense will tell you that was the context.

I do not care about "ePenis" as you can tell by my mediocre post count, so quit being childish. I read your post, and it was anything but a "marvelous gem". This is evident by the replies that actually understand the concept. Thanks for the complete personal flame instead of attacking the points presented (which isnt just in my post)

40kenthusiast wrote:Nids have a lot of synergy. Look at the following brick.

Here comes the Swarmlord with his Tyrant Guard. They are getting FNP from a Tervigon and cover saves from a Venomthrope, while the Swarmlord lowers the enemy's ws to 1 and gives some charging bugs preferred enemy and runs at the same time because another Tervigon hit him with the run + shoot power, not to mention the fact that he's making nearby folks fearless with Synapse.

The sad thing? Your described brick is about 750 pts, and can't realistically threaten mechanized units, or anything outside of assault range for walking infantry.

I play tyranids, and I'd agree that "synergy" is being overused for this book. I'd also agree that a number of units are overpriced (Tyrants, Tyrant Guard, and Tyrannofexes being chief offenders), and that too many of the "good" units were crammed into Elites. Yes, it's nice that the Elites section is no longer completely useless, but having all of our AT options limited to 1-3 units of 1-3 models in this way is somewhere between "frustrating" and "useless."

I do like the Swarmlord's ability to reach out and buff someone. What he can do for a unit of Ymgarl, or even normal Stealers, is a joy to experience. But that's a 600-700 pt interaction there; the IG will be fielding 3 Russes or 5 Vendettas in return.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Too much negativity. Let's try for some positives:

1) Hormagaunts. Assuming you can play fast enough, you can bring a huge number of these guys for relatively mild points, and they will be useful. (I'm still trying to figure out movement trays for them, but I'm leaning towards diamond or triangle configurations, in groups of 4-6 models.)

2) Gargoyles. Much like Hormagaunts, cheap and useful. Not scoring, but faster. (If only the Alpha had a "Wings" option....)

3) Tervigons. Like 'em or not, they are an efficient model (for which there is no model).

4) Trygon. Purely on aesthetics, it's a lovely thing.

5) Zoanthropes. They lost Eternal Warrior and the ability to operate independently, and got a nice gun upgrade. Not a bad trade.

6) Hive Guard. All around good. I'd bring 15 of them, if I could.

7) Alpha. He's reasonably priced, for what he does, and he can be used to bolster your forces in a few different ways, either by adding some punch to 'gaunt/'gant units, or by eating instant-kill wounds for Warriors/Zoanthropes.