Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have two units moving across the battle field in the following formation, one represented by X's the other by R's:

XXXXXXXXXX
RRRRRRRRRR

now if someone was shooting from the very top of the screen the unit represented by R's would get a cover save from the X's. Now lets say that my opponent has killed many of my X's, and I remove the casualties to look like this:

X_X_______X
RRRRRRRRRR

would my R unit still get a cover save? what about if they looked like this:

X_________X
RRRRRRRRRR

Probably not. 50% of the unit receiving fire must be behind the screening unit to get a cover save.

1) they would get a cover save ONLY if they were firing *through* the x's at the R's.

2) You determine if 50% of the unit is obscured by cover. IF it is the entire unit gets a cover save, otherwise it doesn't.

As we werent there we cannot say definitibely, but assuming your diagrams are correct neither case where models have been removed would R's get a cover save, assuming all models are the same height etc.

As much as I hate to say it, Don Mondo and Nos are incorrect. The 50% rule applies only to terrain. On page 22, you will see a list of "Exceptions", one of which states: "If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood) or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it (see the photographic diagram below)."

So yes, Unit R will get a cover save if a shot is fired through Unit X, regardless of the percentage "covered".

No, the "target" is in cover means *that model* is in cover - it is not specifying the unit is in cover at all.

You then determine if 50% of the unit are "in cover" to determine if the *unit* get a cover save.

Sorry Gwar, you're wrong on this, as you have assumed "target == unit"

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, the "target" is in cover means *that model* is in cover - it is not specifying the unit is in cover at all.

You then determine if 50% of the unit are "in cover" to determine if the *unit* get a cover save.

Sorry Gwar, you're wrong on this, as you have assumed "target == unit"

Indeed I have, because you target units, not individual models in the unit.

Sorry, on this one Gwar is just flat out wrong. Units, friendly or enemy, are cover, pure and simple. And a unit must be 50% within or behind the applicable cover to get a save from it. You determine on a model by model basis, using the quote Gwar provided, whether the target models are or are not in cover. The picture at the bottom of page 22 even explains this. Then, as per the Units Partially In Cover section on page 22, if 50% or more are in cover, the unit gets a cover save. If under 50%, no cover saves.

Gwar! wrote:Indeed I have, because you target units, not individual models in the unit.

But each model within the unit is determined to be "in cover" or not on a model by model basis, and you work THIS out when firing through units by seeing if each firing model gives cover to the target unit.

You are wrong on this matter

Oh boy, I think for maybe once I will say Gwar! has it on this one, *IF* the OP's design is what you are facing in the same shooting phase and you are shooting straight on.

Imagine one unit reduces squad X to what you see in the bottom picture provided by the OP and then the owning player decides to remove models either based off wound allocation or just so happens to pull them out of coherency. Then another separate unit in the same shooting phase fires at unit R, all the models between the two X's qualify for the exception Gwar! quoted.

Note I said "models" qualify as they are the target, and they ARE between "gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer."

so

X____________X
RRRRRRRRRRRRRR

if firing straight through x, then all the R's between the X's are indeed in "cover" and sense that is over 50% of the unit, then the unit is in cover.

EDIT: This may not be what was intended by the rule they probably only were thinking of the 2 or 4 inches tops between models in a unit, but as written, the two X's make up a unit, and they do have a gap between the two X's , and there is no limitation given to the size of the gap, and so as per the exception rule the gap between models in an intervening unit even if the target is completely visible, has cover.

Given that the OP has edited his message and changed the position of the Xs, yeah, sure.
When I answered, the three Xs were all on the left end, as were the 2 Xs. That's what my answer was based on, the fact that most of the Rs were not between two Xs.

Fair enough Don, we all fall for the ol' Bait and Switch once in a while

To the OP - changing your post so it reflects an *entirely different* situations is a bad thing to do (TM)

Along with Don when I answered all the Xs were on the left, making it a very very very different situation.

So, Gwar! was right?

You still need to determine how many models are firing shots through the unit as opposed to around the unit. Partial credit?

don_mondo wrote:Given that the OP has edited his message and changed the position of the Xs, yeah, sure.

nosferatu1001 wrote:To the OP - changing your post so it reflects an *entirely different* situations is a bad thing to do (TM)
.

Man, I am glad to here that. I was really confused by your answers for a bit there.....


Yeah, changinge the scenario.... bad form old chap....

My bad for changing the post, I did how ever change it less than 10 minutes after I made the original post. However, if you look at the time I made the edits and the time of the posts, only don posted before I made the edits.

And I apologize for making the changes but they had to be done in order to properly display the scenario I was talking about. And I forgot to review my post before I made it and I forgot that spaces don't work out so well, so I needed to use the underscore for dead models. My bad, I'll make sure to review my posts next time or make mention of my edit.

Meh, the rules ought to be that if you shoot through one unit to hit another, all successful cover saves should get applied as hits to the first unit. It makes sense if you think about it

ItsTheSneak wrote:Meh, the rules ought to be that if you shoot through one unit to hit another, all successful cover saves should get applied as hits to the first unit. It makes sense if you think about it

"This does not mean that intervening models literally
stop the shots, but rather that they obscure the sight of
the firers or otherwise spoil their aim. A successful
cover save in this case might mean that the firer has
not shot at all, missing the fleeting moment when the
target was in its sights. This is because, in the case of
intervening friends, the firer would be afraid of hitting
his comrades; while in the case of intervening enemies,
the firer is distracted by the more immediate threat."

ItsTheSneak wrote:Meh, the rules ought to be that if you shoot through one unit to hit another, all successful cover saves should get applied as hits to the first unit. It makes sense if you think about it

No, it really doesn't, and Gorkamorka pointed out perfectly why.

So how do my units of boyz/nobs hiding behind gretchin get a cover save from some railgun or MC shooting over the gretchin at them?
They don't block LoS Right?...cos their really short right?... I'm confused now

ChrisCP wrote:So how do my units of boyz/nobs hiding behind gretchin get a cover save from some railgun or MC shooting over the gretchin at them?
They don't block LoS Right?...cos their really short right?... I'm confused now

Because the grots are dancing about shouting rude things at the Broadsides.

Good now I know exactly what to say to the other commander... Thought I was going to have to build tiny trampalines for their bases...

Regdar wrote:My bad for changing the post, I did how ever change it less than 10 minutes after I made the original post. However, if you look at the time I made the edits and the time of the posts, only don posted before I made the edits.

Except I started to write my post *while* you were editing, or did you assume it happened instantaneously?

Aw give him a break, he was basically changing a typo. It was an accident.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aw give him a break, he was basically changing a typo. It was an accident.

It was a typo, but one that *entirely* changed the situation. Hence the confusion...