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Hey guys,

Been thinking about Chaos... not that I'd be getting any time soon, but:

-Do they play differently to SM?
-Does an army themed around one God actually tend to be competitive? I was thinking about Khorne or Tzeentch... But Tzeentch would probably be too "shooty". My favourite God is Nurgle but he seems harder to model and less competitive... Tzeentch's stuff looks best: Is there an advantage to doing one God or is Chaos Undivided just as playable?
-Can an assault-focussed Chaos army do well, or will it smell as bad as my attempt at an assault SM army? Shooty SM are what I think I have to go for atm.

A chaos player will probably correct me, but they can be played in a huge variety of different ways. I think it just comes down to personal choice (thousand sons' AP3 bolter scare me), and competitively... I dunno, only an actual chaos player can answer that methinks.

How are they different?

The majority of the CSM army list is close combat oriented. Loyalist SM army list is not as much, but they are no slouches in combat either.

The main back bone of the CSM list is the troops, supported by the Hvy support and to a lesser extent HQs.

The main back bone of the SM is alot more...synergy IMO. Every unit is a supporting unit basically, but the specialists are where it's at.
In addition the loyalists have much more efficient Fast Attack choices.

Does an army themed around one God actually tend to be competitive?

It depends...do you count ... "count as"? Are icons cool or not, etc.
Anyway, as I see it:

*Undivided = competitive, efficient CSM troops with units to suppliment/compliment them.
*Khorne = competitive, but one dimensional and essentially a trick pony as mobile shooty armies hamper an army like this.
*Slaanesh = less competitive, still lethal but suffers from being too specialized in the anti-infantry department.
*Tzeentch = IMO the worst option for competitive play...5th edition really rammed the stick up the rear ends of the Dust Buckets. It's not to say they can't win, but it's an uphill climb with rules so against them already in terms of points efficiency.
*Nurgle = (not exactly the icon) is most competitive, as it is both a generalist and a specialist rolled up into one package.

In terms of rules and gameplay there is no advantedge to going with one god. GW decided it was stupid and went with blandhammer for the time being.

CSM can be very shooty, they can use their benefits in combat on a more defensive level...but the range of said shooting is short to medium range, while SM are alot more flexible with their shooting.

The biggest difference is that basic CSM are not as good as SM, but the "cult" marines are better (and more expensive) than regular SM. Add to that the special units (all the daemons, the defiler, possessed, obliterators, etc.) and CSM play quite differently, for sure. CSM are my second fave army after orks, but I dislike "normal" SM and have no interest in collecting them. They are a good balance between strong, power-armor killing machines and daemonic monsters, creating a cool balance in my eyes.

SM play more traditional tactics—competent base troops with mobile attack capability, long range fire support, and key specialists to fill roles that all work together well. CSM are about overwhelming power, with strong individual units that are individually fearsome, but less overall army synergy (IMO). Chaos screams at you with huge, terrifying single units that demand your attention, while Marines overwhelm you with tons of smaller, competent, and dangerous units that force you to split your fire. That's just my impression.

@ The above poster

Your idea that CSM are not as good as SM make me laugh.

Look at a ten man squad of CSM to SM. No Heavy Weapons taken or anything like so.

CSM: Same block of ten men at only 150 Points. They don't have ATSKNF but a 10 point icon can all of a sudden make them stick all the better. Plus, they get a BP, Bolter, and CC Weapon. They're taking a charge from SM and dishing out equal attacks, or are charging and doing attacks at a 3:1 ratio.

SM: More Expensive. Yes they have Combat Tactics and ATSKNF but they aren't getting the benefit of shooting at all.

CSM: If you want to do a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon, you can! It's useless for them and SM are wasting 4 men with this, so no one should bother.

Plus, I also find the idea that Cult troops are better than Vanilla CSM laughable. You're paying more just to pay more. I mean, Khorne you're getting more attacks, S, and I. But you're paying 6 more points per model. Tzeentch you're paying for a 60 point champion and a ton of other little knick knacks that most likely won't be used. Plague Marines are hardy, but they won't be saving you points anytime soon. And Slaanesh, you pay 5 points for better I and so you can upgrade them for more points.

No, in the end, CSM Vanilla units are a jack of all trades which are FAR better than SM. Plus, you'll be enjoying watching SM run so they don't get hit in a charge.

Also, your biggest asset is not a single powerful unit, but many. You can field MCs in a CSM list. Couple that with daemon engines and either Termicide to gouge out any tanks or hard units, or even with Daemons, both greater and lesser, and you're running a large number of units destined for a job. Oh, and let's not forget the infiltrating Chosen with four melta guns. Leave the Havocs at home, you have better fire support in chosen squads, WHO ALSO have the BP, CC WEAPON, and Bolter.

Well.

Chaos can play many different ways you can even pretty much run them like the loyalist armies i've encountered so far. *Asides drop pod spam of cource*

But as said it's all about big targets. I run with 2 Vindicators 2 Chaos Dreadnoughts and 2 MoN Daemon Princes the rest of my 1500 pt list is plague marines.

It's alot of big targets to down.


Although the Land Raider could use abit "More" imo to make it chaosy and not just stolen loyalist equipment.

@ Argument above.

Run of the Mill CSM are just as good if not better then loyalist SM.
Their just not my style.

nurgle is easily the most competitive....its the only cult with access to meltas...up to 3 per squad if you desired it...

at 23 points they are well worth it ....T5 feel no pain is obnoxious

The thing I used to love so much about chaos was that we had just as much versatility and different army styles as space marines (or any other army). We had our chapters with focus on fast attack, mechanization, psyker powers, close combat, tough infantry, etc. We still have plenty of diversity, but it is greatly diminished.

How does chaos play? Almost any way you can think of, but always with a slight focus on close combat and a strong core of troops.

I mean, other than getting Havocs or Chosen that can have 4 meltas per squad and are available for anyone....yeah, I guess Nurgle is the only cult with access to Meltas. By the by, how are you getting 3 in a squad?

He's probably thinking of a combi weapon on a champ or transport, but if that was the case the potential is 4 not 2 so idk.

i run a combi melta on the champion and on the rhino

they are a ridiculous troop

You want close combat?
Chaos has it.

You have a dedicated assault choice for just about every situation you can thin of.
Berzerkers are effing nasty.
You can also customize almost everything with marks/icons and weapons, don't get too caught up in upgrades though, they tend to stack up and get rather pricey.

If I were you I'd stick with disciple marines (e.i. plague marines, zerkers) instead of using csm. They may be more expensive, but you'll see that fearless/ whatever other goody they have will more than make up for the difference.
Also, Csm has the LOS, which I would argue to be their best psy power. It comes in very handy.

In a chaos army it is very important that you never roll ones!!!
On a one, your dreadnaught can potentially destroy any of your friendly vehicles.
Also on a 1, the daemon weapons will hurt the lord holding them.

I haven't heard of a uni-god csm army being very competitive.
I would argue that you need each of the marks/icons to achieve different things:
My Slaneshi Sorc, which is attached to a squad of Plague Marines, uses the lash of submission to bring enemy units into assualt range of my. Khorne Berzerkers

However I'd call SM a much more reliable army
They have a bunch of neat special characters, like vulcan
SM get a bunch of free/cheap stuff (e.i. free missile launchers/flamers for tac squads)

Rarely is a CSM force going to be the same as another. However, I'm talking strictly non-tournament gaming here. Personally I stick with the mark of glory (previously called undivided) since I run a 'Word Bearers' army. I tend to leave out generic daemons except for 3k+ games but I do take a GD and DP. At around 100pts each, both of these are phenomenal. Though caution w/ the GD since it only moves as a Troop type.

DP's are not 100points each...
The minimum cost for them should be 130 as you should never go without wings...seriously.

As for uni-themed... COUNT AS. Which pretty much validates anything you take as anything you say.

So Lash Prince,Plagues, Oblits could be crazy fluffy..and could be an ass to play against (dependent on your list).

I have been playing CSM for the last several years but recently they have really fallen to the way side for my other armies. They just don't hold up to the loyalist marines if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, I do love my CSM, but they are just missing so many options that I had a lot harder time performing well with them vs. my loyalist.

One of the biggest things that the CSM have going for them are their troops and HQ. The cult troops are all very stout. The standouts to me are the Nurgle troops and the Khorne troops. One is tough as nails and the other can dish out some serious hurt. The paltry CSM troop unit also has the option for two special weapons - this makes them definite contenders.

The HQ choices are also nice but sadly the Daemon Prince just outshines the other choices. Eternal Warrior is just too good to pass up.

The current problem with Chaos is that you are forced to play in a certain way if you want to be able to win against a "serious" oponent.
Double Lashprinces? Check
Obliterators? Check
Plaque Marines? Check

Normal Marines can have a bit more variety without shooting themself in the foot. ( which doesnt mean that the current Marine Codex is free of wallbangers. Who had the stupid idea to make Vanguard so extremely expensive? And dont get me started on the Legion of the Damned...yea, nice GW...they are a nice gimmick but ultimately quite useless, hells, they are more expensive than a squad of Rubric marines including the sorcerer... )

The lash Oblits is the dick list.

But LR rush and 3 Vindicators still can be compettive.

I don't know... the Double lash has lost a bit of edge as most competitive lists are mech.
Plagies are good.
Oblits have always been decent, but their weaknesses are pretty apparent.

Lash was great in 4th edition and has become steadily worse since. Honestly, I wouldn't even bother bringing it anymore, what with psychic defense, mech, etc.

Well it has its uses as psychic defense is steadily becoming non-whole-board cover, can die, can be kicked out of their Metal Boxes, and there are armies without it.

It's lost its charm, but is still a powerful tool...hell, it's pretty cheap to, if you have the points remaining it's not a bad thing to have in your back pocket.

If you run double lash, 6 oblits, and 4 rhinos full of nurgle with meltas you should monkey stomp any SM army

basic troopers lick in 5th edition....it doesnt matter if you have mark of glory .... if sum1 multi charges you and ties in ur 10 marines and wins combat by 5 you just lost 10 marines.

Fearless only IMO.

If ur only going to casually play than consider a Fabius list. 18 point fearless troops with S5 and access to special weapons

cheers

Csm basically slaughter sm. It's their role in the game. I've never lost a tourney game to sm. The hordes however... they are a different story.