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OK, so I have a couple of BT questions:

Question 1: I ususally play against Orks, and Ghazghkull just smashes everything I try to put in his way. If I try to shoot him with long-range weapons, they shoot something back, and as long as I take a casualty, I'm forced to take a morale check, and no matter what I do, I can't fire my heavy weapons because I've moved. Terminators get mashed by his Klaw, and plasma weaponry will just kill of some of his meatshield boyz. The EC is a pathetic excuse for a hero slayer, and I can't charge him with a Dread because of his Adamantite Skull, wich means that I would give up my dread for one or two wounds. If I try to fall back and keep shooting him as I run, they'll shoot my running units and force my marines to either flee or consolidate towards Ghazghkull because BTs are insane. What do I kill this crazy dude with?

Question 2: What's up with BT LRCs being the only ones without "assault vehicle"? They invented it, and they're the ones who would benefit the most from it, but they don't get it. Why? Even the Daemonhunters get it!

Question 3: A bit linked to questions 1 and 2, what do I kill vehicles with? I'm not allowed to charge with PFs from a moving LRC, and my long-range stuff is awful.

Question 4: What's the point of Sword Brethren? My experience with them is that they instantly die if the enemy looks in their general direction.

Oh man you whine as much as my best friend.

The reason LRC for BT don't have Assault Vehicle is because they're codex came before the rule even came out.

As for Ghazghkull, you have a few options. Make sure you're giving your BT the Oath for Preferred Enemy. Biggest piece of cheese right there.

Sword Brethren or a HUGE 20 man squad of sloggin initiates/neophytes may be all it takes to put bodies on your side. Mix a few shotguns with them as well so you always have outnumbered 3+ saves, take 1 from the PA marines then the rest from the scout-wannabes. This outta keep your men strong.

Also, get some damn Heavy Bolters! Take a Dakka Pred or two and eat through his unit. He won't be much of a problem.

And I don't know what you mean by the EC being pathetic. That thing kills my PA or TDA hero everytime! That thing is a pain in the butt!

Well the key is to get to kill graz before he waaghs on you, thats the point where I have trouble, or when people put nobz with a painboy with him, damn near unkillable at times unless you insta kill them or deny the FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And black templars cannot assualt out of the land raider? then why the hell does it have frag launchers then?

TheTrueProtoman wrote:Well the key is to get to kill graz before he waaghs on you, thats the point where I have trouble, or when people put nobz with a painboy with him, damn near unkillable at times unless you insta kill them or deny the FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And black templars cannot assualt out of the land raider? then why the hell does it have frag launchers then?

The problem is, with so many things to protect Ghaz with, there's no way I'm able to kill him before he Waaagh!s.
As for the frag launchers, I hadn't thought of them, I guess I could argue that RAI allows me to use it as an assault vehicle? I don't know anything about 4th edition, but I assume that you were allowed to charge out of any vehicle, and thus the "assault vehicle" rule wasn't needed?

@Logar:
I guess it's just the fact that I play against orks that makes my champ appear weak, T4 and no immunity to ID isn't fun...

Well another thing that could hurt graz is the amount of power weapons that its impossible for FNP, I recommend either kiting him so he doesn't get his waagh of, or overwhelming him when he does. Thats all I can recommend with space marines, Graz is tough, just hope that he doesn't get his 2 plus invuln.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:OK, so I have a couple of BT questions:

Question 1: I ususally play against Orks, and Ghazghkull just smashes everything I try to put in his way. If I try to shoot him with long-range weapons, they shoot something back, and as long as I take a casualty, I'm forced to take a morale check, and no matter what I do, I can't fire my heavy weapons because I've moved. Terminators get mashed by his Klaw, and plasma weaponry will just kill of some of his meatshield boyz. The EC is a pathetic excuse for a hero slayer, and I can't charge him with a Dread because of his Adamantite Skull, wich means that I would give up my dread for one or two wounds. If I try to fall back and keep shooting him as I run, they'll shoot my running units and force my marines to either flee or consolidate towards Ghazghkull because BTs are insane. What do I kill this crazy dude with?

Question 2: What's up with BT LRCs being the only ones without "assault vehicle"? They invented it, and they're the ones who would benefit the most from it, but they don't get it. Why? Even the Daemonhunters get it!

Question 3: A bit linked to questions 1 and 2, what do I kill vehicles with? I'm not allowed to charge with PFs from a moving LRC, and my long-range stuff is awful.

Question 4: What's the point of Sword Brethren? My experience with them is that they instantly die if the enemy looks in their general direction.

Answers

Question 1. Moving forward is optional, In the BT Codex it states that the RZ Move is identical to a Consolidate move. The 5th Ed Rule book states "They may move up to D6 inches" Note the words MAY and UP TO. and as it says, up to you may move between 0 and the number rolled on the D6. The EC is a great Hero Killer, ST6 with no armor save? WS6, He should ALWAYS attack before Gaz, as his Init is Higher.

Question 2 - Already answered

Question 3 - Note that all your assault squads can take melta bombs, for 2 points per model. Even moving with vehicles moving fast, you still hit on a 6.. (and re-roll if you have the Vow - which you should).

Question 4 - Sword Brethren are an interesting animal, I use mine as an infiltrating Gun squad.

On LR in 4th, from BGB "... but may not assault unless the vehicle has open-topped noted in its profile, is a Land Raider (or one of it variants) or did not move before passengers disembarked"

Vanguard27 wrote:
Question 1. Moving forward is optional, In the BT Codex it states that the RZ Move is identical to a Consolidate move. The 5th Ed Rule book states "They may move up to D6 inches" Note the words MAY and UP TO. and as it says, up to you may move between 0 and the number rolled on the D6. The EC is a great Hero Killer, ST6 with no armor save? WS6, He should ALWAYS attack before Gaz, as his Init is Higher.

The problem is, the champ gets 5 attacks when charging, so I've got to hit and wound with all attacks, and then hope that Ghaz fails all his saves. If I fail ONE save, I'm insta-death'd, as are all other units I can field, unless I feel like paying 35 points for an adamantine cloak for something which would get slaughtered anyway.

Regarding righteous zeal, I've always read "[...] must move towards the nearest visible enemy" as "MUST move towards...", not as "must move towards the NEAREST..."

As for the long-range part, I've realized that I've been extremely stupid, las-predators are pretty cheap as the BT...

I think that any opponent should allow you to charge out of your land raiders. It is TFG behavior to not allow it, pretty much at the same level as enforcing the fact that blood angel rhinos have no doors

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem is, the champ gets 5 attacks when charging, so I've got to hit and wound with all attacks, and then hope that Ghaz fails all his saves. If I fail ONE save, I'm insta-death'd, as are all other units I can field, unless I feel like paying 35 points for an adamantine cloak for something which would get slaughtered anyway.

Regarding righteous zeal, I've always read "[...] must move towards the nearest visible enemy" as "MUST move towards...", not as "must move towards the NEAREST..."

As for the long-range part, I've realized that I've been extremely stupid, las-predators are pretty cheap as the BT...

Correct, the Champ does get 5 attacks, Gaz has 4 wounds, I believe, Don't look for stuff that will kill him in one turn. Cause its tough, to do. As with any big multi-wound high toughness mode (Read Mawloc/Trigon)l, you need to wear him down, don't be afraid to leverage bolter/regular fire at that type of enemy.

Regarding RZ again

couple of links with people discussing it. Basically, it says its Identical to a Consolidate move. Ask anyone here. Do you have to take a consolidate move after you win CC? The answer is no, so you do not HAVE to move for RZ, but you may.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-rules-help/189997-black-templar-righteous-zeal.html
http://insigismundsveintaktikanumerus.blogspot.com/2009/11/righteous-zeal-how-it-works.html

OK, so I have a couple of BT questions:

Question 1: I ususally play against Orks, and Ghazghkull just smashes everything I try to put in his way. If I try to shoot him with long-range weapons, they shoot something back, and as long as I take a casualty, I'm forced to take a morale check, and no matter what I do, I can't fire my heavy weapons because I've moved. Terminators get mashed by his Klaw, and plasma weaponry will just kill of some of his meatshield boyz. The EC is a pathetic excuse for a hero slayer, and I can't charge him with a Dread because of his Adamantite Skull, wich means that I would give up my dread for one or two wounds. If I try to fall back and keep shooting him as I run, they'll shoot my running units and force my marines to either flee or consolidate towards Ghazghkull because BTs are insane. What do I kill this crazy dude with?

Firstly, why are you putting heavy weapons in your crusader squads? Taking a heavy weapon gives up the option to take a PW or PF. There are better ways to get heavy weapons in your lists. I can see some small 5 man units taking a Multimelta, but you can get better heavy weapon coverage in other choices. When you zeal, you don't have to move the full distance either. As long as your move takes you closer to the nearest enemy, you are fine. Additionally, a Chaplain allows you to essentially "steer" your units in the direction you chose. The EC is a bargain for his points when he can re-roll all his failed to hit rolls with his Str6 PW. If you are having trouble with him dying to IC's...you are sending him after the wrong targets.

Question 2: What's up with BT LRCs being the only ones without "assault vehicle"? They invented it, and they're the ones who would benefit the most from it, but they don't get it. Why? Even the Daemonhunters get it!

I think that you are playing with a bunch of tools if they don't let you use the Landraider the way its supposed to be used. I've never played against a person who hasn't allowed me to assault out of it. The INAT FAQ allows this as well.

Question 3: A bit linked to questions 1 and 2, what do I kill vehicles with? I'm not allowed to charge with PFs from a moving LRC, and my long-range stuff is awful.

See above. You kill vehicles with attack bikes with Multimeltas, dreadnoughts, or command squads with meltaguns. There are other ways, but those seem to work the best.

Question 4: What's the point of Sword Brethren? My experience with them is that they instantly die if the enemy looks in their general direction.

Sword Bretheren are worthless. You are better off taking command squads. They cost the same, but have more weapon options. If you want Elite choices, you are better off taking assault termies, dreads, or standard terminators with dual ass cannons, 2 chainfists, and tank hunters.

If you want to destroy Ghaz and his cronies you take the fight to them. Furious charging command squads with a Marshal with 2 LC's and termie honors absolutely murders stuff. You may not kill Ghaz directly...but you can beat the crap out of him on combat res. BT should have it easy vs. orks since they are mostly geared for CC.

Um, I'd just like to point out that you MAY NOT re-roll grenade attacks due to Preferred Enemy.

Preferred Enemy only works against models with a WS, so unless its a walker, no rerolling against vehicles.

In addition, the EC only gets 4 attacks on the charge. 2 base, including Terminator Hnours (says so in his profile) and +1 for 2 CCWs, and +1 for Assaulting.

Sorry, I am ignorant. E Champ gets 4 attack dice. A of 2 Already included the terminator honors. 2 nd weapon and 1 for charging, I only see 4. I would love to play people who lose to the Emperor's Chump. I thought he was baddass but he gets torn up first combat. I have been aginst :Eldar,Ork nobs and DA term champ Belial and lost.

I am not as cunning as most, when it comes to rules tricks or make the best of what I got. My dice roll do suck.
I get stomped by Ghazghkull w/ a painboy. Shooters can't target a IC if in a squad or is it retnue that keeps him save.(Am I wrong about shooting IC in a unit? Hopefully.)
In the BRB, I think it allows a full turn when disembarking before the transport moves. Even a Rhino {BRB pg 67 Disembarking}
AlmightyWalrus and I could be going up aginst Good dice rollers. The dice odds are the same but we roll the 6's it's for to hit or int rolls. Not when we are rolling for vehicle damage .

Xca|iber wrote:Um, I'd just like to point out that you MAY NOT re-roll grenade attacks due to Preferred Enemy.

Preferred Enemy only works against models with a WS, so unless its a walker, no rerolling against vehicles.

In addition, the EC only gets 4 attacks on the charge. 2 base, including Terminator Hnours (says so in his profile) and +1 for 2 CCWs, and +1 for Assaulting.

HA, See, I am corrected, I did not have my codex, so I was going from memory..

and the re-rolling against vehicles was something that I forgot in my excitement. Thank you for the the corrections!


Anyway,

When I play BT, my greatest concern is the EC getting shot to death before he can get into CC (I play lots of jump infantry, so they are getting up front, not him so no squad for him to merge into)

But, thats life... if I could only give him a jump pack too!.

1- Ghazzy is a beast. There are a few things you can do. Bait him to leave his unit and then gang up on him with a few units. Hit him with something hard to make him call the waaagh prematurely. Knock out the transport, then hit the occupants with a vindicator to kill as many nobs/boyz as possible. The EC is a speedbump, and it is always better to charge Ghazzy... his extra attacks when charging are unreal.

The RZ move is made as a consolidation move. You "must" move as a consolidation that is -up to D6"- this can be from 0-6. If they give you crap for it move them a fraction of an inch.

2- everyone over here knows that a land raider is a land raider and you can assault out of a land raider. If they dont let you, they are just as someone said, being "tools".

3- BT have a hard time in the AT buisness. You have to invest in either expensive razorbacks, small lascannon squads, predator annihilators or dreads with LT lascannons. Other than that, make sure you have meltas all over. As for mid range, assault cannons are pretty decent at the whole tank killing game.

4- Never used Sword Brethren... they are basically expensive Crusader squad with a special ability that cant take neophytes.
On the other hand, Assault Terminators are AWESOME. Furious Charge, Lightning claw terminators... now THAT is a unit that can give ghazzy a headache.

CaptKaruthors wrote:If you are having trouble with him dying to IC's...you are sending him after the wrong targets.

I guess it might have something to do with the fact that I'm mainly playing against orks and eldar...

Ghaz, as mentioned, rips him apart, and Eldred has a 3++ save along with loads of CC stuff, and there's no point in keeping the champ out of CC, right?

Um, I'd just like to point out that you MAY NOT re-roll grenade attacks due to Preferred Enemy.

That is correct. However, you can re-roll them if you charged with a chaplain lead unit.

On the other hand, Assault Terminators are AWESOME. Furious Charge, Lightning claw terminators... now THAT is a unit that can give ghazzy a headache.

They can if they are properly equipped. Usually, a 50/50 split between TH/SS and LCs is best. Ghaz is hard to pull down in a single round of combat anyways. However, he's easiest to pull down with a winning combat res score if he's with other units that are easier to kill.

I guess it might have something to do with the fact that I'm mainly playing against orks and eldar...

Ghaz, as mentioned, rips him apart, and Eldrad has a 3++ save along with loads of CC stuff, and there's no point in keeping the champ out of CC, right?

You should be sending the EC after units that don't have a character in them. Also, you should have him joined to a crusader unit that is tooled for close combat, and not have him wander off on his own. Eldrad on his own is a chump. He's got 2 attacks base....not really a fighter. He can easily be overwhelmed with masses of crusaders...or just avoided all together if he's running around with a seer council.

I gotta say, I dont agree with you on the emperors champion, as in all games Ive played, Ive sent him in first, and he's been the last one standing at the end in 4 out of 5 games. Maybe I was just lucky though. May I suggest sending him in with an squad of terminators (close combat with storm shields is my personal preference).

I do agree with you however that some rules in the Black Templars codex are well in need of an update, most in need is the Land raider crusader, the whole vehicle has changed alot since that codex was written, so it just needs bringing up to date. If you have a regular opponent maybe theyd let you use some of the more up to date space marine rules from the new codex, or maybe you could just alter the rules slightly to modernise them

I agree about sword brethren as well, they are basically a more expensive crusader squad!!! I have started replacing my sword brethren squad with an extra crusader squad (except as a troops choice of course), simply because you get more choices within the squad, and you get more models for your points, which is always a bonus in my world

I enjoy the sword brethren just for the special rules that you can give them and the amount of special weapons that can be allotted to them, that's what makes up for what they are, They are sort of a chaos chosen squad but with different options.

I thought I have seen a posting to use Shotguns? str3 Assault 2? Why. BP are better.
I was send this unit: "
A Regular Sword Brethren squad in PA 5 men (Note, Not veterans)
Have the option of 3 skills, Counter Attack, Furious charge, or infiltrate
(Take infiltrate)
Marine X 3- Troopers with Bolters
Marine 4 - Melta/Plasma
Marine 5 - Lascannon/Heavy Bolter/Multi-Melta/Plasma Cannon
It has been my experience that infiltrating lascannons get the enemies attention.
That being said, I don’t use them that often, because they tend to die, a lot "

I think it could be good. I had some Eldar scorpions flank me and take out a preditor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of Tools; Not allowing a BT LR as a Assault vehicle.
When using LR's. BT players get the SotM as WS2?
Most LR are Heavy support. A tool would make you begin the game outside of the LR. It's not a transport, It is heavy support.

I enjoy the sword brethren just for the special rules that you can give them and the amount of special weapons that can be allotted to them, that's what makes up for what they are, They are sort of a chaos chosen squad but with different options.

What special weapons are you talking about? They can only take one. The rest is BS stuff like combat shields, or a stormshield. They actually have less options than a command squad when it comes to weapon choices. Their vet skills are wasted on a expensive "meh" unit. Like I said, it's better to take a command squad since you get more stuff...and it costs the same.

Oh well no need to go overboard, I enjoy the unit, you don't have to Captain.

1- So there are actually like four questions in here.
1. 1 I always read the RZ rule like the OP that you HAD to move. It specifically says in the RZ move you must move that many inches near the closest enemy like a consolidation move. I would ask a judge or a league owner before I tried not moving on a RZ. But if you have a Character in the unit you could use the crusader seals to reroll and try and get a lower RZ number.
1.2 But it doesn’t matter because the squad can still hold still in your movement phase which is what matters for heavy weapons. I could consolidate out of a CC in the enemy phase and in my next phase hold still and shoot heavy weapons. That’s how RZ works, and IMO one of the reasons for the consolidation reference (The other is contacting units from the movement which can’t happen anymore).
1.3 And 5 man lasplas squads are still a good thing for BT
1.4 The EC is really bad IMO at what his fluff says he is for. I try the best I can not to put him up against characters, he’s MUCH better at taking out elite infantry.
1.5 To beat Ghazghkull you really need to get the charge which I know is easier said than done. But get the charge, put all your attacks in the squishy (at least squishier) orks and then let the combat resolution take out Big G. He will either be fearless and taking massive numbers of saves or he will break with massive Ld modifiers.
2- I don’t have the rules in front of me but this seems too ridiculous to be true. I would carefully read the rule book, codex, and FAQs to check this. But I don’t use a LRC in my BT builds just because I think the crusaders sqds are far superior for similar pts.
3- Lasplas sqds or 3LC predators. Also put a melta gun in EVERY crusader squad that isn’t lasplas
4- You can infiltrate 5 man lasplas sword brethren sqds. Very unfluffly but it is IMO their only use

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
1- So there are actually like four questions in here.
1. 1 I always read the RZ rule like the OP that you HAD to move. It specifically says in the RZ move you must move that many inches near the closest enemy like a consolidation move. I would ask a judge or a league owner before I tried not moving on a RZ. But if you have a Character in the unit you could use the crusader seals to reroll and try and get a lower RZ number.

The bolded section above. This is entirely false. RZ states "...the unit must move towards the nearest visible enemy unit. This is identical to a Consolidate move..." It only specifies a direction, not a distance. It goes on to say that this move is identical to a consolidate move, which states that the unit may move up to D6 inches.

Therefore you do not have to move (you did in 4th ed, apparently, but you could consolidate into assaults, so RZ could be used to charge on the opponent's turn)