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Here's a 1000pt Black Templar list I just wrote up; the primary focus is Mech (to get to the enemy lines), and yes, I do know that 20 man squads are beasts in close combat, but I can never seem to get them there (they ALWAYS get completly wiped out, even with chaplains) and they take up a lot of points in 1k, so I'm trying something new.

EDIT EDIT: The lists I switched to are down the page a bit.

EDIT: Updated List:

HQ:
Emperor's Champion - 90
...with Accept Any Challenge - 50

Troops:
Crusader Squad [5x Initiates, 4x Neoyphytes] - 120
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25
...with Frag Grenades - 9
...in a Rhino with Smoke Launchers & Extra Armour - 58

Crusader Squad [5x Initiates, 4x Neoyphytes] - 120
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25
...with Frag Grenades - 9
...in a Rhino with Smoke Launchers & Extra Armour - 58

Crusader Squad [5x Initiates, 4x Neoyphytes] - 120
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25
...with Frag Grenades - 9
...in a Rhino with Smoke Launchers & Extra Armour - 58

Fast Attack:
Land Speeder- 50
...with Multi-Melta & Heavy Flamer - 25

Heavy Support:
Predator Annihilator - 120
...with sponson Lascannons & Smoke Launchers - 28

Total: 999Is this an okay list? Competitive in the slightest? Anything I should change, or any glaring issues that are going to screw me over? I do take advice

3 Rhino-mounted squad is not bad.

3 officers is too expensive for this points range. You can take a Marshall instead of the chaplain and techmarine. Then you have about 150 points to take something which can hurt tanks, like speeders.

Or you could use the EC as your HQ, and save even more points

Is this better?

HQ:
Emperor's Champion - 90
...with Accept Any Challenge - 50

Troops:
Crusader Squad [5x Initiates, 4x Neoyphytes] - 120
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25
...with Frag Grenades - 9
...in a Rhino with Smoke Launchers - 53

Crusader Squad [5x Initiates, 4x Neoyphytes] - 120
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25
...in a Rhino with Smoke Launchers - 53

Crusader Squad [5x Initiates, 4x Neoyphytes] - 120
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25
...in a Rhino with Smoke Launchers - 53

Fast Attack:
Land Speeder- 50
...with Multi-Melta & Typhoon Launcher - 35

Land Speeder- 50
...with Multi-Melta & Typhoon Launcher - 35

Land Speeder- 50
...with Multi-Melta & Typhoon Launcher - 35

Total: 998

The typhoon missle launcher in BT codex has no krak warhead(!), and only heavy 1... a heavy flamer could be better.

BT's should not be in rhinos. They spend too many points on them.

They should be on foot or in a LRC.

like Tokugama said, drop the typhoons, they suck with BT's.

You want to maximize what you have that is good and cheap.

Predator Annihilators are great and cheap for you. You have super characters, and assault terminators, but best of all you have fantastic troops. Don't put them in Rhinos, it just isn't worth it.

Take 2 LRC's, fill them with Crusader squads and the EC and you have a very good list.

Or, go all foot and swarm the other guy with numbers.

If you want to play rhino rush, go Wolves or C:SM, they are just flat out better at it.

LRCs with crusade squads are fail.

Their best friend are terminators with furious charge.

10 S4 guys with re-rolls, 4 normal S4 guys, maybe 1 character.

You would find many units that you cannot kill easily.

Even a 85pts cost lonewolf could hold you for a whole turn, then laugh at you.

LRCs with crusade squads are fail.

You are fail!

Honestly, guys, I think a LRC is pretty intimidating with either a Crusader squad or Termies inside

You are right, I was just being inflammatory because tokugawa is so blunt all the time.

I think it is a language barrier.

The crusader squad is great because it hits hard and is scoring, the assault termies are great because they are a fricking lawn mower.

Neither is fail, which was a stupid thing to say.

I usually stick with Termies in a LRC as opposed to the large crusader squad but thats just my opinion.

And your opinion is totally valid.

My point was that if you take a critical mass style list, all LRC's with crusader squads in them, you now have an army with Tanks that can only be hurt by anti tank firepower, that are scoring, and that have potent assault units in them.

BT assault termies with furious assault are amazing, just amazing. But if you only take the, and skimp on scoring units, or take units in overpriced Rhinos, then you miss out on what makes BT's good and unique.

IMO, take them in large units on foot, or in LRC's. That is what makes them different and it takes advantage of their special rules, and it works, really, really well.

If you want to run MEQ's in Rhinos, there are other armies that do it better.

Reecius wrote:BT's should not be in rhinos. They spend too many points on them.
They should be on foot or in a LRC.
You want to maximize what you have that is good and cheap.
Take 2 LRC's, fill them with Crusader squads and the EC and you have a very good list.
Or, go all foot and swarm the other guy with numbers.

I disagree with a lot of this statement. Our rhinos may cost 20 more points than vanilla marines (I think I don't own a SM codex, just BT) but ours have a very big advantage. The best aspect of our out of date codex is that our smoke launchers still work under the old rule system.

Black Templar smoke launchers make all penetrating hits glancing instead. Under the current damage chart, our rhinos can not be destroyed from a successful hit on our armor (unless it's AP 1 and they roll a 6). This is insanely powerful because the turn our rhinos pop smoke they are extremely hard to kill.

Now I rhinos CAN die if we get a wep destroyed, immobilized and then get a wep destroyed/immobilized again but that's a LOT of firepower into one tank just to MAYBE destroy it. If they roll lowly they have shaken stunned, whoopy do. Throw some extra armor on it and a Black Templar rhino will shrug off all but the luckiest hits and still be able to drop everyone off next turn unharmed.

In my opinion the 20 point difference isn't that big of a deal, you lose about 1 model per rhino you take (of basic troops with grenades or what not).

A LRC can do amazing things but taking them at a 1000 points? All it will take is a good melta shot and you're down 1/4 your army then and there.



As far as the actual rest of the list, I like it a lot. But to be honest I HATE scouts so I would never take them. Sorry it's just my opinion, I'm not saying take them out. But it is frustrating that they lose stats and saves compared to normal crusaders.

True point about the smoke launchers... I guess it's just not as much fun to have one of the main advantages to your army be only due to an out-of-date rule. I'd prefer to take advantage of other things about the codex than smoke launchers that just haven't been rewritten yet!

Ok, since I did recieve some good feedback on my most recent list, I may try running it at some point. In the meantime though, I re-did the list to be more focused on footslogging (at 1k points I couldn't fit in more than a single land raider):

HQ:
Emperor's Champion - 90
...with Accept Any Challenge - 50

Troops:
Crusader Squad [10x Initiates, 10x Neophytes] - 260
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25

Crusader Squad [10x Initiates, 10x Neophytes] - 260
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25

Heavy Support:
Predator Annihilator - 120
...with sponson Lascannons - 25

Predator Annihilator - 120
...with sponson Lascannons - 25

Total: 1000

@TakamineG
Old smoke works just as well on the LRC as it does on the Rhino.

And you don't use Neophytes? Why? They are fantastic, you get ablative wounds for 10 points, and once you are in HtH they are barely different than an Initiate.

If you are just taking black marines in overpriced Rhinos then you are missing out on what makes BT's unique, IMO.

Why not just play Codex Marines and get an army that does all of what you say, better. You want to Rhino rush? Cool, then take Space Wolves who do it best, or Vulkan Marines who do it great as well. An Assault army (and BT's are an assault army) in Vehicles that don't let you assault out of them and are easily destroyed and not very fast just isn't a good idea.

At any rate, you are definitely free to have your opinion of course, but when you crunch the numbers and look at the special rules available to the BT's, running them in Rhinos isn't optimal and it takes away form their flavor.

@Xcaliber
That is a solid list, just be wary of a canny opponent luring one of your squads away with a bait unit like a land speeder or such.

As soon as you go up to 1500 points, take a chappy or two so that your neophytes get rerolls to hit as well, and for the extra movement form the cynobytes and so that you can always go where you want the squad to go.

At 1,000 points, not many lists will be able to destroy that many bodies before you hit their lines. And with two preds, target priority number 1 for you is anything with large blasts that can destroy your squads, such as Russ's etc.

And as always, practice makes the master. You will find what works best for you through trial and error in your local gaming environment.

Good luck with it.

That's an interesting list... I think it would do pretty well, but I wonder about armies that might have even greater numbers of close combat troops (like foot-slogging orks) giving you a hard time. Your lascannons won't have much to shoot at, and I would think they'd be a match for your units in hth (or close to it).

Just speculation on my part... a nice list imho

In a situation like that it depends on who gets the charge. If the BT's charge, they munch the Orks badly, if they get charged, they get hit hard. It all comes to down to positioning and maneuver.

Reecius wrote:@TakamineG
Old smoke works just as well on the LRC as it does on the Rhino.

And you don't use Neophytes? Why? They are fantastic, you get ablative wounds for 10 points, and once you are in HtH they are barely different than an Initiate.

If you are just taking black marines in overpriced Rhinos then you are missing out on what makes BT's unique, IMO.

Why not just play Codex Marines and get an army that does all of what you say, better. You want to Rhino rush? Cool, then take Space Wolves who do it best, or Vulkan Marines who do it great as well. An Assault army (and BT's are an assault army) in Vehicles that don't let you assault out of them and are easily destroyed and not very fast just isn't a good idea.

At any rate, you are definitely free to have your opinion of course, but when you crunch the numbers and look at the special rules available to the BT's, running them in Rhinos isn't optimal and it takes away form their flavor.
.

LRC are great... but this is a forum about a 1000 point list. Taking a LRC at 1000 is 1/4 your army in one basket that is easily taken care of by melta guns. I love LRC in even 1500, but lower than that is a huge point sink and will mean less points for everything else. Meaning less troops to hold objectives.

I don't like the Neophytes because there are a LOT of very good weapons that will allow a space marine an armor save but not a scout. Heavy Bolters, Assault cannons, Necron Destroyers.... As for viewing them as just being there for extra wounds, if you're BT are in a LRC they are not getting shot up very much. If they are walking across the board any AP4 gun will ruin half your squad off of two shooting phases.

Old smoke launchers work just as well on rhinos and LRC, but a rhino is now (nearly) undestroyable for 58 points (with extra armor, which is a must. You want to move every turn). I'm not saying don't take LRC, I'm saying Rhinos are not bad. It's 20 extra points (or 25ish with upgrades). That is I think about 1 and 1/4 of a marine per rhino. Is it REALLY that drastic to lose 1 marine out of you're army per rhino compaired to vanilla marines?

As for assaulting out of a tank, that's why you keep them in there until you're close enough to not move. Rhinos are not strong enough to dive into the heart of the army, I know this. But taking 2-3 rhinos means you can screen you're back rhinos with the ones in front. Use terrain to keep cover, pop smoke on lead rhinos when they are exposed, and save the rear smoke launchers for when you're parked a couple inches away from their line the turn after. Or screen them with the LRC in larger games.

And be careful. Land Raider Crusaders (for Black Templar) under the new rules TECHNICALLY do NOT let you assault the turn you disembark. In current edition rules, a transport can only let models disembark and assault if the transport is classified as an assault vehicle. LRC have an assault ramp (which means nothing in current rules, they took that out) and are NOT assault transports! For houserules this is no big deal, most people don't care. However for tournaments there have been issues with players getting into judging issues with this rule. The FAQ does not cover this (unless I've missed one).


The armies I take a almost fully assault based. I take 1 bolter squad at most, and 2 predators. The rest is designed to get into my opponents face.

@TakamineG

Heavy bolters and the such that kills scouts is allocated to your marines, since you will save it, lascannons and the such that will instant kill your marines go to your scouts, its how you differ the wounds to what and how you would do it.

As for the LRC I have known different people who played black templars at major tournaments and they have been allowed to assault out of their LRC, plus the whole point of a land raider is to assault out of it, and if someone has a problem with a vehicle function just like everyone elses when it actually cost more then what others can take that's just nonsense.

Also rhinos for black templars are just way too expensive for that crap armour, even with the smoke launchers you still force your group to have less bodies overall, and you forgo the whole purpose of the special rule to actually move forward when shot at, you fire a lascannon at my squad, I will just remove a crappy neophyte and move forward d6 inches.

If rhinos work for you thats great, but my personal experience with them is that they are easy kill points that make assaulting take far too long to take hold, and allow the opponent to just move farther away from them, plus if terrain is nearby they will just head for that taking advantage of the fact that you do not have grenades.

TheTrueProtman has it, well said.

Thought its not always wise, taking the Emperors champion along with a cheap marshall is never a bad idea for your crusader squads, since you will be giving both leadership ten.

Also Ty Reecius, I usually go unnoticed on the boards.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:...I usually go unnoticed on the boards.

With that eye patch... how?

I recently won with the footsloggers, which was probably my first real victory with BTs. My opponent didn't know about Zeal though and made some deployment mistakes. (Also he went second so Njal's Tempest stuff didn't do much).

As to the Marshal, would an LC marshal with honours/halo be considered cheap? Or should I make him a bit less costy? (Also, what should I get rid of to fit him in?)

I'm thinking either...

Pair of LC, Termi Honours, Iron Halo - 150 total
Power Sword, Termi Honours, Bolt Pistol, Halo - 111 total

RiTides wrote:

TheTrueProtoman wrote:...I usually go unnoticed on the boards.

With that eye patch... how?

You got me to Lol

Xca|iber

For the marshal for bare bones cheap you can just give em a power sword and bolt pistol, or you can just give him a pair of lightning claws, which coupled with the Accept any challenge you have a nice side leader, you don't need to dump that many points on him really, if you end up changing something and having more sure throw something else onto him. Also congrats on your victory with BT!

Thanks for the tips Protoman!

I managed to fit the marshal in, though I'll see which list is more effective over the next couple of weeks (if I don't get sucked back to my Nurgle Marines).

Oh here's the marshal list, btw:

HQ:
Emperor's Champion - 90
...with Accept Any Challenge - 50

Marshall - 80
...with Power Weapon & Bolt Pistol - 16

Troops:
Crusader Squad [10x Initiates, 6x Neophytes] - 220
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25

Crusader Squad [9x Initiates, 6x Neophytes] - 204
...with Power Fist & Meltagun - 25

Heavy Support:
Predator Annihilator - 120
...with sponson Lascannons - 25

Predator Annihilator - 120
...with sponson Lascannons - 25

Total: 1000

Congrats on the win!

Yeah, a Marshal is a good call for the leadership. At a higher points level though, I swear by the chappys as they control where you go, give the Neophytes rerolls to hit, have cynobytes which are amazing, make the squad fearless and they are brutal in combat.

At this points level, a marshal is a better bet though.

@thetrueprotoman
No worries man, credit where's it's due!

You don't always have to take him but the marshals 10 leadership helps out a lot, and chappy are never bad either due to how they support your neophytes.

Plus with all those lascannons that is very hard to keep armour on the board.