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Hi all,

I play other wargames of a more historical nature but I am starting to dabble in WH40k.
As such I have no real world experience of how the various weapon / armour values interact on the tabletop which is why I'm seeking your expertise with my first list.

The concept of this list is 'no armour' which tallies with the background I'm building up.
I see it being deployed with the scouts protecting the flanks/infiltrating and claiming opposition objectives, the devastators providing long range/anti-tank support and the tactical squad is the flexible unit which will split/defend/attack as the mission/enemy dictates.
Each assault squad will be accompanied and supported by one of the HQ elements with the ability to be highly mobile, with the jet packs, and hard hitting causing the other player to be reactive rather than proactive.
Anyway, enough of the pre-amble here's the list:

Space Marines
HQ
210 - Chapter Master
185 - Captain
both with a pair of Lightning Claws, Articifer Armour, Melta bombs, Digital Weapons and Jump Pack.

Troop
200 - Two 5 man Scout Squads with Sniper Rifles, ML and Camo Cloaks
205 - 10 man Tactical Squad with Flamer, ML, Power Fist and Storm Bolter

Fast Attack
510 - Two 10 man Assault Squads with 2x Flamer, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Melta bombs, Combat shield.

Heavy Support
190 - Devastator Squad with 2x Missle Launcher and 2x LasCannon

I like being unconventional but I would like it to stand a reasonable chance of being competitive so be as blunt as you like.

Cheers,

Kevin

Thats actually not a bad list

It is definitly not a conventional list, but this actually would be quite effective against many standard builds.

Two HQ's in 1500 pts is a bit much.
I'd drop both and add a Chaplain w/ jump pack.

Moreover, I'd take 2 full Tactical squads in Rhinos.
In combination with the 2 Assault squads (plasma pistols, combat shields are meh),
this allows you for a modified Rhino rush tactics.

Thanks for the feedback.

The background that I am developing for the force is one of betrayal and abandonment.
Whilst assaulting K66, a planet infested with Nurgle worshippers, they were betrayed, ambushed and abandoned. During the ambush their Liberian was killed.
Fighting a guerilla war meant that they were soon without motorised vehicles and weapon systems that could not be quickly and easily hidden.
As they do not have a Librarian or any orbital systems they have no comms with the rest of the Imperium and they believe they may be the last Chapter left that is faithful to the Emperor. This background means they do not have access to large mechanised items or orbital systems.
I'm not 'fixed' on this background but I do like it a lot

Because of this background I don't want to use Rhino's or other mech.
I also like the idea of all the points other armies will spend on anti-armour systems that will be less than optimal against this army.

Onto some changes...
If I swap the Chapter Master for a Chaplain (with Combi-Flamer / Power Fist / Digital Weapons / Jump Pack) I can swap the Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Combat shield combo in the Assault squads for a Storm Shield and Storm Hammer.
If I also remove the melta bombs from the Captain I can add Sgt Telion to one of the scout squads.
I also like the symmetry of two HQ choices as they can each reinforce one of the assault squads.
If I did drop one of them I could shuffle things around and get another Devastator squad but is that a good idea?

Thanks

So you're trying to go for an assaulty army that uses neither Tanks nor drop pods correct.?

A terminator squad would add some nice ranged punch.

Clyclone missile launcher terminators are really cool models and have the versality to combat any threat

I like the background on your SM. And liking your list.

Grey Templar wrote:A terminator squad would add some nice ranged punch.

Clyclone missile launcher terminators are really cool models and have the versality to combat any threat

Actually... Regular termies really arent that great.

You pay an exorbitant amount of points for both the extra attack and the power fist, while at the same time you pay for special weapons that cannot be used in CC.

Realistically, they're not even that great at shooting. While it's true that when given 2 assault cannons, or two Cyclone launchers they can be nastier than a devastator squad, the price you pay for a unit outfitted like this is 460 points. Too much for a unit that is spitting out 16 str4 ap5 shots, plus whatever heavy weapon they're carrying.

In close combat they also fail to impress. Against hordes upon hordes of small, cheap models, they will either get bogged down or dragged down, and will almost certainly fail to get their points back. Against more powerful targets, their less than adequate 5++ save makes it hard for them to deal with lots of power weapon/rending uquipped CC specialists.


They are indeed a very versatile unit, but more often than not this merely means that it will be hard to get the full usefulness out of them.

Ok. do some assault termies with TH/SSs.

Telion and a 10-man squad with sniper rifles and a ML can be had for 200 points, and he (arguably) gives stealth to his unit.

This would give you flexibility to deploy 2 5-man squads, as well as a single large one for kill-point games. 5-man is good for getting a pin, 10-man good for Monstrous creatures, holding a midfield objective in cover, and the like.

I agree that 1 HQ, and a smaller cyclone termie squad would give you more range punch

Ok I'm definitely hearing the '2 HQ at 1500 is too much' message.

I looked at the Terminators and I see two things.
If I'm reading the book right the Cyclone is just a shoulder mounted ML and there are cheaper ways to get another ML into the list.
If it's for assault then how am I going to get them into contact bearing in mind the self-imposed restrictions of no vehicles/drop pods?
So at the moment I'm not sold on the Terminators

I have taken your feedback and come up with a couple of options:
1. Have only the Chaplain (Combi-Flamer, Jump Pack, Power Fist, Digital Weapons) in the HQ, bump the Telion led scouts up to 10 and add another 5 man scout unit with a ML. Add a Storm Bolter to the Devastators.
2. Have only the Chaplain (Jump Pack, Power Fist) in the HQ, drop the Storm Bolter from the Tactical Squad then add a LotD Squad with ML, Flamer and Power Fist.

Both options keep with the theme. The three sniper units allow me to use rashad's suggestion and the Legion of the Damn gives me a Deep Strike capability.
Both give me an extra ML.

its actually 2 missile launchers in one package and the terminator still has his SB which he can fire as well.

Terminators are just as fast as regular marines and if they are assault terminators they can run the first couple of turns to get into charge range. a Librarian (although it violates your fluff) canm get those termies up the field quickly with GoI.

LotD are a points sink. they die just as easily as normal marines to small arms fire and are slow as a drunken snail when it comes to movement.


Bikes would fit in your list. (small enough to hide and portable for fast counter strikes)

OK, here's a re-worked list with only one HQ choice.

Space Marines
HQ
145 - Chaplain with Power Fist and Jump Pack.

Troop
250 - Two 5 man Scout Squads with Sniper Rifles, ML and Camo Cloaks. One squad with Sgt Telion
205 - 10 man Tactical Squad with Flamer, ML, Power Fist and Storm Bolter

Fast Attack
520 - Two 10 man Assault Squads with 2x Flamer, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Melta bombs.
200 - Biker squad with 2x Flamer, Power Fist, Extra Biker and Multi Melta Attack Bike

Heavy Support
190 - Devastator Squad with 2x Missle Launcher and 2x LasCannon

or I could swap the bikes for another Devastator Squad.

Considering how much tank is out there I'd suggest swapping the flamers for Meltas.

Also, Devastator squads are... well... not optimal to say the least... I honestly think you'd be better off trying to achieve the same thing amount of weapons through sternguard, though this tactic works best if they're both scoring and have support of a razorback.

Basically here's the problem, the current edition of warhammer relies heavily on mobility, but, because of your self imposed choices, you've denied yourself 2 of 3 ways (that I can think of) to make your troop choices mobile. You've ruled out Drop Pods and Mech, so really, the best way I see that you could go would be to get a biker captain.

This obeys the fluff of your army, and it is tactically pretty sound.

Terminators, despite being a point-sink, should be able to deep-strike by virtue of their armor. Though it is true that they are still a little overcosted.

I would be more inclined to go with 1- 10 man group of scouts and break it up when it is most useful according to combat tactics... but this works.

The new list appears sound. Good luck.

What about swapping the tact squad for a ten man scout squad with Telion, camo cloaks, ML and Power Fist?
Can Telion have Power Fist?

Telion cannot be further upgraded; he should be in a sniper squad with a missile launcher

Kommissar Kel wrote:Telion cannot be further upgraded; he should be in a sniper squad with a missile launcher

thanks - I didn't think he could be but I wanted to check so I didn't do myself short.

When I expand I was thinking:

1750 -
Add 3 snipers to the Telion led squad plus a second Devastator squad armed the same as the first plus a Storm Bolter.

1850 -
Drop the extra snipers and add a Ironclad Dreadnought with 2 hunter-killer missiles

2000 -
Add another Ironclad Dreadnought with Ironclad assault launchers.

Over to you guys...

I have been playing with 2 Black Reach sets and a couple extra Tac squads. So 4 basic Tacs, 2 leaders, 2 basic Terminators. Everything on foot.


I have a couple of points to make. 1st, a foot list does not play like a mech list. You will set up differently, and play differently. Refused flank becomes very important, because you will not have the mobility to concentrate easily. You want the enemy to come to you. Set up second if you can, to Refuse Flank where you can control objectives and battle. Be careful when setting up terrain and objectives. Keep your reduced mobility in mind.

Against superior fire power, you will have to conserve your strenght and hide during the early turns, then come out and take nearby objectives later. If you just walk your squads up piecemeal or in Napolionic fashion, your going to get slaughtered. You are going to have to outwit your opponent in the setup phase, and make good on it during the battle. If you setup well, the game will be yours to win, if you even play just fairly well.

Try to concentrate your power on one section with multiple squads hitting at the same time, with support if possible. Have some templates in your list to make the enemy spread his formations. When you charge him, you will be able to concentrate more guys than he can defend with.

Anything that gives you a form of mobilty is gold. Heavy weapons and storm bolters are good. Gating Librarians and teleporting termies can be OK. But beware deepstrike scatter and piecemeal reinforcements. They can give you mobility, but hand your opponent an easy victory if you do not use them wisely. Usually the threat of them possibly being used is more important.


I haven't used jump troops and bikes. And there are times I would have given my left nut for one... But I have been making myself use these basic troops to learn how to get more out of plain old ordinary forces. And I must say, they have performed very well. Better than I had hoped, once I got used to them.

I have been proxying the missile launchers as plasma guns. I also proxied a Sternguard squad and a Devestator squad once, and they did quite well. I have not been using heavies on the termies, but I highly recommend you do. I have some termie heavies, but like I said, have just been using the basics.

But, I have only been playing against Tau. Although my opponent plays with all the trimmings of nicely fleshed out army. At first I lost most of my games, then I started tying. Now I most often win...


The termies have worked very well for me, and I use them to concentrate fire and assault with. One battle I managed to explode two Tau skimmers with power fists. Even when you need sixes to hit, twelve powerfists attacks on the charge can get usually get a couple through!

The Tac squads also work quite well, I really enjoy using plasma cannon and flamer. I usually use a couple Librarians with Gate and Avenger. But if you are fluff adversed to them, the Chapter Master also works quite well as well. That large blast can really pack a whallop if it hits. And it keeps the enemy from packing too many units in one place...

Warprat

Excellent ideas Warprat.

you should put together a tactics article for footsloggin marines here on Dakka

Great stuff - thank you for the tips and advice.
Please excuse the newbie question but what are 'termie heavies'?
I know termies are terminators but the heavies bit has me confused.
Cheers

Heavy Flamer, Assault cannon, or Cyclone missile launcher

thank you

rifles66 wrote:OK, here's a re-worked list with only one HQ choice.

Space Marines
HQ
145 - Chaplain with Power Fist and Jump Pack.

Troop
250 - Two 5 man Scout Squads with Sniper Rifles, ML and Camo Cloaks. One squad with Sgt Telion
205 - 10 man Tactical Squad with Flamer, ML, Power Fist and Storm Bolter

Fast Attack
520 - Two 10 man Assault Squads with 2x Flamer, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Melta bombs.
200 - Biker squad with 2x Flamer, Power Fist, Extra Biker and Multi Melta Attack Bike

Heavy Support
190 - Devastator Squad with 2x Missle Launcher and 2x LasCannon

or I could swap the bikes for another Devastator Squad.

I am a huge proponent of foot slogging marines. The newest codex makes it a little harder to make them viable (point costs) but as I was looking through the
codex and making lists some things became clear. You need to min/max troops to heavy weapons OR make sure that all squads are manned/geared
appropriate to their threat levels. You have zero armor and need to keep that last part in mind at all times. The Dev squad is the weakest in this regard.
They have 4 heavy weapons, arguably the weapons could be more cohesive in that squad, but that squad will be priority number one for early game shots
by your opponent. Once they lose 2 marines, there goes a heavy weapon and a large amount of points for every marine thereafter. More and more armies
are taking massed fire type weapons. Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Scatter Lasters, Shuriken Cannons all become much more viable in 5th edition and a 3+
armor save can only be made so many times.

If you are foot slogging, I'd go with something more like 10 Devastators with 4 Heavy bolters, and 10 devastators with 4 missile launchers, use only one 10 man assault squad for
counterassaulting, perhaps keeping some or all of your bikes for that much needed harrassment. In missions against people with a lot of heavier tanks, your
heavy bolters would be almost nullified so you could just combat squad them and use them to contest/pop small vehicles.

Another option for a second HQ, (your first list at the top had too many points in HQ, not too MANY HQ) is a conversion beamer MotF to hang with scouts
or if they infiltrate he could sit with devs. If you bring dreads later, a master of the forge would become all the more fluffier. Someone has to take
care of those metal behemoths and apply the appropriate supplications to the machine spirit.

I think in a fluff scenario as you describe, the army would become veterans rather quickly. I'd suggest sternguard at higher points levels. A sternguard squad with
all storm bolters and a heavy bolter, although not necessarily viable pointswise, is something that could be rather painful for an enemy when you hit them with all those
shots with upgraded ammunition.

I cheer and applaud your fluff-based army selections. Hope to see some pictures.

Grey Templar wrote:Excellent ideas Warprat.

you should put together a tactics article for footsloggin marines here on Dakka

Thanks for your kind words! Maybe after I play a few more armies...