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In before Slowpoke... I looked this up and couldn't find threads pertaining to this particular question about the new chimera's fire points..

So the Chimera's fire point is "the Chimera's top hatch."

The first time one of my units was fired upon by a chimera from the new codex, my buddy pointed to the little circular hatch on top of the turret and said "I draw line of sight from this hatch here." For months now we have been playing it this way, but today someone pointed out to me that there is a large hatch on top of the crew compartment, right above where the actual lasgun fire points are represented on the model, and that THIS hatch is the hatch the rule is referring to.

This means that the turret of the chimera would actually block line of sight from the fire point, and the chimera would need to turn sideways, at least partially, exposing its vulnerable side armor when the guys inside want to open up on something without having to get out.

Is this true? Have I been duped all the while?

The large hatch beside the lasguns is, indeed, the top hatch. You may not have been duped - your friend may have been genuinely convinced that the turret hatch was the fire point.

Yeah, the large hatch with the double doors is the fire point. As for the turret blocking los, I remember either reading on another thread somewhere (maybe here) that most players assume the guardsmen inside are capable of aiming around or firing over the turret. When firing from the hatch, I've always played as though the turret wasn't there. Hope this helps.

I remember the codex saying that they are actually supposed to fire from the lasgun emplacements, for simplicity you draw line of sight and distance from the top hatch of the chimera. Which is in between where the lasgun emplacements are.

agreed. the 5 guys fire from the big hatch between the lasguns, not the little cupolas up front.

It's the rear hatch.

A Cupola is not a Hatch

ok, and LOS and arc of fire? Is it 360, so i can shoot in any direction i want? When you check TLOS from the top hatch it's difficult to see anything (as the damn thing is flat), and in front you have your own turret.

Kubik wrote:ok, and LOS and arc of fire? Is it 360, so i can shoot in any direction i want? When you check TLOS from the top hatch it's difficult to see anything (as the damn thing is flat), and in front you have your own turret.

Who knows?

The rules just tell us to check LOS from the hatch... which means that, yes, the turret blocks LOS, and you would be unable to draw a LOS to anything that isn't either taller or higher up than the tank, as the hatch is almost flush with the top of the tank.

I would play it as simply drawing LOS from just a fraction above the hatch (so you can actually draw a LOS to other models on the table) and with the turret blocking LOS as normal.


Allowing firing models to draw LOS from any of the 6 lasguns would have been easier than the hatch idea, but that's GW for you...

The cupola is never officially named as that. The top/side/back/etc hatches are never named clearly. That are many hatch-like things on the chimera. TLOS from the rear top-hatch would mean you get an extremely poor field of fire (nothing below a few inches, in a rough 270 degree backward facing arc.)

But from previous edition material and Imperial Armour, it is quite clear (check and see for yourself) that the rear hatch, between the lasgun emplacements, is indeed the fire-point hatch the 5th-edition IG codex refers to.

As for TLOS and that near-flush hatch hull. I suggest using a model or a model with its legs cut off, to place on the hull and use its head as a TLOS models-eye-view reference point.

While I think that the turret should block LoS, I never, ever, ever see it played this way.

considering a soldier would need to be at least head and shoulders above the hatch to fire, I don't see how the puny turret would still block his forward LOS. Though this immediately stops being a rules discussion, as literally speaking the LOS for the top rear hatch (as opposed to someone popping up out of it) is in a cone pointing directly upwards, without line of sight to anything parallel and below the height of the chimera's hull.

We've always played it as LOS from about an inch above the rear hatch, though I can't think of a single time it's been an issue in the past.

Also, does anyone else have to resist the urge to giggle when imagining FIVE soldiers trying to jostle for firing space in that hatch? You could maybe fit 2 of the skinnier guardsmen back to back and have them still be able to operate their weapons

The Defenestrator wrote:considering a soldier would need to be at least head and shoulders above the hatch to fire, I don't see how the puny turret would still block his forward LOS. Though this immediately stops being a rules discussion, as literally speaking the LOS for the top rear hatch (as opposed to someone popping up out of it) is in a cone pointing directly upwards, without line of sight to anything parallel and below the height of the chimera's hull.

We've always played it as LOS from about an inch above the rear hatch, though I can't think of a single time it's been an issue in the past.

If you're going to use a fluffy justification, then aren't the soldiers supposed to be inside the compartment using the side gun ports? Those definitely can't draw LOS forward of the tank either.

The half inch seems like the most playable compromise though.

I've always seen it played as Insaniak described- assume the model is JUST BARELY peeking out of the back hatch. So the turret blocks LOS, but you can see and shoot around it and off any of the sides and rear. Of course, even playing this way the turret blocking hardly an issue. Canting the Chimera a few degrees off square to the target gives the hatch a clear line of fire around it.

If my opponent is going to make a stink about anything regarding chimera hatch LOS, I simply fire from the hatch atop the turret.

GW never defines what a hatch is, and the turret hatch is undeniably the most 'atop' the Chimera.

Carry an loose head. Put it on the hatch. Voila, LOS solved.

sourclams wrote:If my opponent is going to make a stink about anything regarding chimera hatch LOS, I simply fire from the hatch atop the turret.

GW never defines what a hatch is, and the turret hatch is undeniably the most 'atop' the Chimera.

And of course, they will ideally point out that you still can't shoot anything below the level of the hatch you are firing from.

The smarter option would be to discuss it before the game and come to an agreement, rather than try to one up with rules lawyering.

haha wow I've been playing this rule (as an opponent, not guard so far) COMPLETELY wrong then. We've always played fire from what the more literate among you define as a "cupola" as opposed to a "hatch" (which is fair enough).

Seeing as a pintle mounted storm bolter on a razorback CANNOT shoot through the turret on the back it would make me inclined to believe that by RAW those poor imperial guardsmen would just be sol trying to shoot forward.

However, I think this is one of those situations on which most agree to let them fire forward. I would. It is worth mentioning though that a non opened topped vehicle getting potential 4 (counting a sgt's plasma pistol) special weapons firing directly forward is fairly... i'm not going to say overpowered... but it's pretty powerful to say the least.

Overpowered is an ugly phrase. Unbalanced is more acceptable.

I think It cannot fire through turret on the back mostly because pintle mounted guns can fire only 45 forward (but not sure in this one).
As for firing from Chimera, I've also always measured LOS and range from cupola, and just recently discovered that "rear hatch" means something different. That's why I am confused now

Kubik wrote:I think It cannot fire through turret on the back mostly because pintle mounted guns can fire only 45 forward (but not sure in this one).

That's not true, pintle mounted have a 360 degree fire arc but on the razorback it is said somewhere (faq maybe) that they cannot fire through the turret.

I still think IG guys should get to shoot forward, though, with their weapons. Even though there's a HUGE hole in the RAW and precedence in similar situations.


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Falconlance wrote:Overpowered is an ugly phrase. Unbalanced is more acceptable.

*shrug* I don't even know if it lacks balance. IG guys are T3 and poorly armored in the best of circumstances and it's not like a chimera is a LR. I actually LIKE the balance it gives to the game (which is why I would never try to pull out a "cant shoot through the turret"), but it does just seem a little ridiculous when compared to other armies transport vehicles.

I should think that if the hatch is in the way you could probably close the dang thing. Anyone who calls me on the commander being out, not firing the turret is forgetting that you can close the hatch. Now if a gunner is up there I think you could in theory lean out of the way. Think about popping out of the hatch, then leaning over the tread section, on the track guard and seeing past the turret gunner to fire around at an angle. Do this on each side and you should be fine. I would never call someone on it.

Well yeah I suppose if you wanted to envision the dudes hanging out and leaning over the side then you might think realistically they could see past the turret. But the codex states that they are actually inside the thing, firing from the lasgun sponsons on either side, and that to simplify things, use the line of sight form the hatch on top of them. Which is a good call, because having to draw LoS from each individual las-sponson would not only be a pain in the ass, but extremely limiting. Using the hatch on top means they at least have a pac-man shaped arc of fire.

Infact both the top turret hatch and the rear chassis hatch both have a raised plate. On the chassis this provides a limited field of fire, the TLOS would probably reach the ground about 6-12" away from the side/rear edge of the vehicle and virtually nothing in front at any distance.. The turret hatch, due to its position, would allow TLOS to reach the ground about 3" from the front and sides. Much further at the rear.

Personally, I play it that you use a half-sized based model (a model based from the waist up) sitting atop the rear hatch and go by the rule that you ignore your own vehicle to determine TLOS.

Razerous wrote:go by the rule that you ignore your own vehicle to determine TLOS.

What rule is this?

Razerous wrote:Personally, I play it that you use a half-sized based model (a model based from the waist up) sitting atop the rear hatch and go by the rule that you ignore your own vehicle to determine TLOS.

While I could see the waist-up model as an acceptable house rule, I'm not seeing why the embarked unit should be able to ignore parts of the vehicle for LOS purposes when the vehicle itself can't do this...

If a Razorback's turret blocks LOS for its stormbolter, the turret on a Chimera should likewise block LOS.


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Gwar! wrote:What rule is this?

Fairly sure he was saying that's how he plays, not that it's an actual rule...

insaniak wrote:
Fairly sure he was saying that's how he plays, not that it's an actual rule...

He did say 'the rule that you ignore your own vehicle to determine TLOS', clearly implying a rule basis.

But that's why we are interested, afaik one must pay very careful attention to ensure that the vehicle doesn't block LoS from a gun.

I have never found anything that suggests you should ignore pieces of your own vehicle for determining LoS. In fact, I have found the opposite.

In one of GW's FAQs concerning firing arcs, theres a paragraph stating that the shuriken catapults under the chassis of a waveserpent can rotate 360 degrees, but cant draw LoS through the rear of the tank, giving them an effective arc of 180 degrees.

Razerous wrote:Infact both the top turret hatch and the rear chassis hatch both have a raised plate. On the chassis this provides a limited field of fire, the TLOS would probably reach the ground about 6-12" away from the side/rear edge of the vehicle and virtually nothing in front at any distance.. The turret hatch, due to its position, would allow TLOS to reach the ground about 3" from the front and sides. Much further at the rear.

Personally, I play it that you use a half-sized based model (a model based from the waist up) sitting atop the rear hatch and go by the rule that you ignore your own vehicle to determine TLOS.

If you ignore your own model for LOS purposes when firing from a firing port, that means you are guaranteed a 360 degree arc from any firing port, and could potentially fire from the left side of the tank only to hit someone on the right side of the tank, it seems silly to me. Firing ports exist and are used to determine LOS for a reason.

Also, both the hatches you mention are bordered by things on the same level that do not make up the actual firing port opening itself, thus, by RAW, you cannot see down to the ground.

Additionally, looking at the codex again, isn't the turret hatch where the Heavy stubber/storm bolter would go? How could it be a fire point if its a vehicle weapon mount?