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There is a 2500 point WHFB tournament here in Bribane in August.
1 special character is allowed.
Player (opponent) based composition 1-5 per game.

Help me make a list with Kroak.


1st point: Whilst a fantastic 'bomb' to drop in the middle of most enemy armies he will struggle vs high toughness or very high armour models such as 1-2+ save knights, T6 monsters and the stupid steam tank.
2nd point: I think a 2nd mage with at least 1 dispel scroll (probably 2) will be needed.
3rd point: BSB? If so a saurus scar vet in Kroaks TG unit and the drum of 'always marhing'
4th point: Kroak makes his temple guard unbreakable. Kroak and 20 TG = 1000 points the enemy will not be getting and I can confidnently run right into the centre of the enemy army and start going bananas with the spellcasting.

So far Roughly:

Kroak

Skink Priest Level 2, x2 dispel scrolls.

Saurus scar vet BSB with Lt armour and shield. Sword of battle (+1 attack) War Drum Xahutec (unit always marches, +1 to rally up to 10)

21 Temple guard. ?Champ ?( is he needed?) standard (which magical banner, war banner or the sun standard are my 2 favorites so far), NO muso (I'm unbreakable, who cares about it)

Go bananas guys.

I don't build lists for tournaments normally, so if something needs to change to fill a requirement let me know and I will tweak accordingly.

LORDS AND HEROES: 1368
Lord Kroak; 600
Skink Priest; 440
- Magic level, Diadem, Scroll, EotG
Skink Priest; 140
- Magic level, Cube
Scar-Vet; 188
- CO, BSB, Wardrum, BBoC, L. Armour, Shield

CORE: 456
18 Saurus Warriors; 246
- Spears, Full Command
10 Skink Skirmishers; 70
10 Skink Skirmishers; 70
10 Skink Skirmishers; 70

SPECIAL: 676
18 Temple Guard; 366
-Reverend Guardian with VotFF, Standard, SSoC
6 CoC; 220
- Musician
3 Terradons; 90


Let me start by saying that I think that Kroak is fantastic. In one game where I used him, I was going second and cast the 20+ Deliverance with IF. Let me tell you that the TK play opposite me was very very VERY upset when I killed a total of nineteen skellies. Nine in one unit alone causing to Panic and run off the table next turn!

As for the list:
A bit low on Saurus but if you play you cards right that won't be an issue.
Anti-magic up the wazoo with a Diadem EotG and the Cube on the other Priest. Sadly the rules don't count Deliverance as a MM so no Channeling... Otherwise a Fly-Priest would be better. The EotG will deal fairly well with those pesky high Sv knights and things.
Scar-Vet goes in the TG. Nice Sv lets keeps him alive. I put on the Wardrum him so you can the unit into the thick of things and cast the lower Deliverance more, sooner.
Max killing with anvil one, the Saurus spears. The Skinks guard the flanks as always.
The TG unit get to be a total of twenty-four with the CO-Vet and Kroak. The VotFF is filler but can is actually pretty useful. SSoC keeps missile fire off the juicy fat unit.
The CoC can be changed for a unit of 4 Kroxigor (same points) if you want. I find that CoC are a bit better at hammering but the consistent S6 has its uses; too bad the nerf dropped them to S4... Another option would be to take a unit of Saurus as the hammer (fifteen with a FC runs 195) and then you have some space for another Terradon it you want it.

I hadn't even considered a mage on an EOTG. but it offers up another big threat, and 'should' keep the priest alive, gives another dispel dice and I was going to take a stegadon enyway....

Hmmm

I was going to cap out at 3 characters but if I go nuts and then tone it back to what I have/what I can get done things should end up pretty brutal.

So the opponent is scoring you for composition? Lizzies have some really nasty, nasty combinations imho, especially as far as chaining up the magic... but if I were scoring comp I'd give you kudos for not taking an EoTG to go with Kroak.

And I LOVE the skink chief on stegadon with the War Spear. So, so cool... and so many impact hits . Talk about a counter-charge unit to run next to your unbreakable block!

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I hadn't even considered a mage on an EOTG. but it offers up another big threat, and 'should' keep the priest alive, gives another dispel dice and I was going to take a stegadon enyway....

I wouldn't expect the EotG to make it to the end. They are pretty hated for the hurt that they can dish out. I have only had mine get to the end twice! They will still earn their points back before they go down.
I am surprised you hadn't considered one. With all the DoC and VC out there these days the extra killing power against them is really helpful (another incentive to have Kroak!)

If you want to scrap the EotG and stay at three characters I would say:
Drop the EotG and Cube-Priest. The lvl. two with the Diadem can just convert PD it generates to DD and gives you up to seven.
Then take a Stegadon, two Sallies (with extra handlers) and another Terradon.
This still keeps the list flexible and still lets you deal with higher Sv units.

I'll tweak it more later. Right now I have to study for a physics test... BLEH

1 special character is allowed, or 1 special character is required? Because I honestly prefer a regular Slann to Kroak. But if you've got your heart set on him, don't let me discourage you.
I usually have a Scar-Vet on a Cold One equipped with the Burning Blade, just because there's a lot of nasty things with Regen floating around these days. A 5-strong unit of CoC is usually a good enough body guard for him.
(just noticed that plusARGON already had that in his list )
I usually take 2 units of Saurus, just because they make really good anvils for hammer units such as Stegadons and CoC units.
plusARGON has some good suggestions, and seems to know a fair bit more than I do, though, so it's no biggie if you want to disregard everything I just said. :lol:

plusArgon... Skeletons don't panic -.-

Malleus wrote:plusArgon... Skeletons don't panic -.-

SHH, we both forgot for that first one. After that is was okay, though. We fixed it after, he got the unit back sans what I killed when we realized turn two glancing over the rules.

More on-topic, I came up with an alternate list that is a bit more different.

L: Kroak (600)
H: Priest; Magic level, Diadem, Scroll (150)
H: Scar-Vet; CO, BSB, BBoC, Wardrum, Shield, L. Armour (188)

C: 18 Saurus Warriors; Spears, Full Command (246)
C: 18 Saurus Warriors; Spears, Full Command (246)
C: 10 Skink Skirmishers (70)
C: 10 Skink Skirmishers (70)

S: 18 Temple Guard; Standard with SSoC, Reverend Guardian (356)
S: 3 Terradons (90)
S: 3 Terradons (90)
S: Stegadon (235)

R: 2 Salamanders; Extra handler(s) (160)


This one keeps it to three characters and takes out the EotG in favour of a regular Stegadon. More Saurus means more killing when the fighting starts! Basics are still the same. Use the Steg as a hammer as well as possibly one unit of Terradons (four would make for a better one).

plusArgon that is pretty close to what I am looking at for alternate lists.

Current issue is do I EOG or go with a Ancient stegadon as a seperate unit to the priest for the extra deployment.
I'll post the list as it stands soon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroak: 600 (with TG)

Skink Priest, level 2, ancient stegadon with EOTG, Dispel scroll x1, Diadem : 440

Saurus scar vet, BSB, Lt armour, shield, Sword battle, War drum: 168 (with TG)

12 saurus, spears, full command:174

12 saurus, spears, full command: 174

10 skirmish skinks: 70

10 skink cohort: 50

4 terradons: 120

3 Kroxigor: 165

20 Temple guard, champion, standard, Sun Standard of Chotek: 388

2 salamander: 150

= 2499

Plan is TG in centre of line, saurus either side, EOG on one side beyond that, kroxigors on other side. Skinks hold flanks and Terradons and sallies near terrain where will be best used.

*Kroxigor are there for St 6, I have the models and am very happy with them, I always make my points back*

Pros:
Level 3 on the mage gives me 3 dice to drop one of his spells/save 1 for diadem if i use 2, which leaves me 6 PD for Kroak to drop the 12 inch range spell twice per phase.
Over 1000 points the enemy is not going to get in the TG, Kroak and BSB
Still only 9PD (10 including bounds is where people start to get annoyed)
With a wall approaching the enemy it will be difficult to run away from kroak, especially with the 'always march'

Cons: Very few deployments.
People will look at the army on the table and hit me for comp. (I couln'd be arsed worrying about it anymore to be honest)

Alternate list:
Skink priest runs by himself

Stegadon ancient seperate Run him up a flank and blowpipe enemey light flank protection units to death/ charge them/ terror bomb them.

Change skink cohort to skirmishers.

The above limits me pretty badly with magic for the style I want but does offer an extra unit AND those blowpipes are awesome (after being on the receiving end with my NGs and having 10 models per turn wiped out)

*golf clap for kroxies*

Glad to hear the big lugs are still working out for you.

As to which list to take, if it matters the engine-less one would comp higher with me for sure. And frankly engines, particularly single engines, die very easily - or at least I know I love killing them, ITP and no backing out of challenges is sad times for skink priests. The extra drops and more blowpipes will be needed as well.

A question though, why full command on the spear saurus? Unless you need core banners for scenarios, those seem like pretty weak places to hold onto +200 points in standards. I usually see spear saurus with just musician for light work, and that would give you loads of points for the incidental things that are missing: TG musician, extra handlers for the sallies, perhaps more skinks ... If you do like the standards in there (and maybe they work, no idea here), I do feel like the champs are at least not great ideas. They've got a static CR3, so solo-challengers can pummel the champ and break the unit, without receiving 8+ spears back (depending on base size). And dropping champs gets those few things I wanted done.

- Salvage

Sadly a list like this is going to be prone to low unit deployment because so much of the army is sunk into the Kroak-TG units. If you want more deploys un-mount the Skink, like you said, and take the Steg. I prefer normal Stegs over Ancient Stegs when not mounts because of the giant bow. It is going to let you kill more high Sv units with the no armour Sv bit, plus d3 wounds for monsters and poison, if you're lucky. Ancient Stegs still have uses, though. I can see one being useful in this army since it can hold a flank by itself, allowing you to put two units of Skinks on the other.
I also think that you are going to be very upset with only twelve spears per unit. The eighteen is ideal for block-to-block combat. It allows you to take a charge and still send twenty-five attacks back; you are able to do this at least twice with eighteen. With fewer and low low lowwww I1, you aren't going to get the max amount like you need since you are losing the second rank before they can even attack.
Since you want to go with Kroxigor I think that you are going to want four. Three just don't cut it, at least for me but if you have success with three then go for it!
If you want more magic, you may need to bite the bullet and take four characters. Otherwise you are either: stuck with an EotG or little magic.
As a final ramble I will denounce the SoB! BBoC is wayy better. Dropping four points of armour for twenty points is too good not to have. Plus, it's flaming in case they have a regen.

I will take what you have and tweak it when I get more time. Not to keep saying that you list is bad or anything. You are on the right path. I just think it could be more effective.

Boss_Salvage wrote:A question though, why full command on the spear saurus? Unless you need core banners for scenarios, those seem like pretty weak places to hold onto +200 points in standards.

The banner helps solidify the SCR of the unit. Even with the wounds from the spears, it really helps against superior units that are going to match those. I have found them to be needed in most cases. HOPEFULLY, Cold-Blooded on Ld9 from Kroak isn't failing all that much so you don't give them up.

Boss_Salvage wrote:I do feel like the champs are at least not great ideas. They've got a static CR3, so solo-challengers can pummel the champ and break the unit, without receiving 8+ spears back (depending on base size).

huh... I never thought about that! I have never had that happen to me. At the same time, max overkill in a challenge is +5... SCR4 (with the banner you love ) means at most you loose by one; SCR3 means you loose by two. With Cold-Blooded and Kroak I can't imagine that being too advantageous for the enemy to do that. If the Saurus don't break (I would hope they won't) then have trapped their character (assume he doesn't break either) allowing you to get something in there in the next phase to deal with him more effectively. Maybe I am thinking about this wrong.

Excellent points guys, thanks.

Which would be preferable? 4 kroxigor or a regular stegadon (special selection)?

The options I'm now looking at (thanks to the sever, sever comp hit I'll get with EOTG) is:

Removal of the champs from the saurus spears units.

Drop the EOTG

Take BBOC instead of SOC

This frees up 318 points. If I drop the kroxigor as well I'm looking at 470+ points to drop 'somewhere'.

Not sure if a 3rd mage would be beneficial (I want as many dice available for kroak as possible so he can drop x2 12 inch 'bombs' per phase in the later game).

I'd like a stegadon of some description.

There is the opportunity for a 3rd salamander

More skinks as early deployers can be added....

Good point on the burning blade, and on the 4th kroxigor if you really intend some heavy lifting. I wonder if a normal steg wouldn't serve you just fine as is? Certainly makes points work out:

L: Kroak = 600
H: Scarvet - BSB, burning blade, war drum, shield, light armor = 168
H: Priest - level 2, diadem, scroll = 150

C: 12 Saurus - standard, musician, spears = 162
C: 12 Saurus - standard, musician, spears = 162
C: 10 Skirmishers = 70
C: 10 Skirmishers = 70

S: 20 Temple Guard - sun standard, standard, champion = 388
S: Stegadon = 235
S: 4 Kroxigor = 220
S: 4 Terradons = 120

R: 2 Salamanders - extra skink = 155
-------
2500

Just incorporating the changes discussed above. Got some smash and some utility workers beyond just Kroak + friends, hopefully they can make up for the dead frog's somewhat immediate threat range?

- Salvage

It will very much be a matter of dropping Kroak and the TG as close to the main concentration of enemy units and then running like crazy at them.

I'll be like a dizzy school girl when I get to face off vs skaven and 'funeral march' VCs (when the entire army is packed in a 2 foot wide 'bubble'

Daemons are also going to struggle and the top tables are riddled with VC and Daemons at tourneys everywhere.

Aren't the two salamanders more effective as separate units? If you're taking a regular Steggie, you might as well split them

I like that list. I've played just a few games with and against lizardmen- and I think skink cohorts are useless. If you're putting a kroxigor embedded in them, they've got style points, but alone I'd greatly prefer to pay two points each and make them skirmishers. So I would definitely spring for that.

The only thing that bugs me about the list as Boss_Salvage has posted it, is the 12-strong Saurus. It does seem like you're going to want that extra rank, so that some bodies live to attack back. The whole point of having spears is to receive a charge, and get the extra row of attacks... if they charge you with anything worthwhile, you're losing lots of attacks back by having them this way.

Edit: What about this? I think I see now why you have so many TG (two ranks in the back). But if you chopped mercilessly you could still fit in the extra ranks for the Saurus. Is there a big advantage to the burning blade over a simple great weapon? That's often how I see a scar vet.

L: Kroak = 600
H: Scarvet - BSB, war drum, great weapon, shield, light armor = 154
H: Priest - level 2, diadem, scroll = 150

C: 18 Saurus - standard, spears = 228 (losing a drawn combat due to no musician, but they're cold-blooded)
C: 18 Saurus - standard, spears = 228
C: 10 Skirmishers = 70
C: 10 Skirmishers = 70

S: 19 Temple Guard - sun standard = 358
S: Stegadon = 235
S: 3 Kroxigor = 165
S: 3 Terradons = 90

R: Salamander = 75
R: Salamander = 75

-------
2498

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I'll be like a dizzy school girl when I get to face off vs skaven and 'funeral march' VCs (when the entire army is packed in a 2 foot wide 'bubble'

How you figure it matches up vs DE? Just saw Kroak drops miscasts, so that blunts the ring some. What do DE have to tackle the Kroaky TG? I suppose they could kill everything else and then attempt to avoid the always-marching nuke-star

EDIT: Oh my sweet hell, Kroak does make his TG unbreakable! Yowza!

- Salvage

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Excellent points guys, thanks.

Which would be preferable? 4 kroxigor or a regular stegadon (special selection)?

Removal of the champs from the saurus spears units.

Drop the EOTG

Take BBOC instead of SOC

I'd like a stegadon of some description.

There is the opportunity for a 3rd salamander

More skinks as early deployers can be added....

L: Kroak (600)
H: Priest; Magic level, Diadem, Scroll (150)
H: Scar-Vet; BSB, BBoC, Wardrum, Shield, L. Armour (168)

C: 18 Saurus Warriors; Spears, Standard, Musician (234)
C: 10 Skink Skirmishers (70)
C: 10 Skink Skirmishers (70)
C: 10 Skink Skirmishers (70)

S: 19 Temple Guard; Standard with SSoC (358)
S: 3 Terradons (90)
S: 4 Kroxigor (220)
S: Stegadon (235)

R: 2 Salamander; Extra handler (155)
R: 1 Salamander; Extra handler (80)

DONE!

Stegs or Krox? Why not BOTH! That is a nasty combination indeed. When used in conjunction they have a combined US22, with fear, you can easily break blocks. Trust me, it's a good combo. They can also be two separate hammers for the Saurus blocks. Preferably there would be more Saurus but more Skinks means more deploys and more units to redirect where you want the enemy to be. In the end the lack shouldn't hurt you, there is enough going on that it shouldn't matter too much. I might try out this list myself sometime... I like it a lot! It's going places.

RiTides wrote:Is there a big advantage to the burning blade over a simple great weapon? That's often how I see a scar vet.

Yessssssssssssss! A few things: first, the Vet has an advantage over enemy characters with GW (which is funny at I1); second, flaming attacks stop regen (not too common but nice to deny); third, HW-shield combo for the +1 armour for having it out (whereas he can't with the GW), sadly he can't get a further +1 for the CC-combo...
The only true down side is that the Vet is still only S5 but that's not a really big deal.

I dig that Argon, and personally I would prefer a more meaty spear block vs the little doobers. More skinks and more sallies are certainly nice, for drops and also killing things. The loss of the 4th terradon is a sad thing (for casualties and rock dropping) but realistically for fighting things that they should fight (war machines, light cav flanks, etc) I suppose 3 is about all that get to fight anyway.

- Salvage

I like that list, too, although I think I'd be tempted to think about dropping a salamander:

If you did you could add:
-a fourth terradon
-a temple guard
-4 skinks to buff two of the units up to 12

I haven't seen too much of skink skirmishers; it may be best to keep them to minimum size, but you'd get more poisoned shots this way...

Boss_Salvage wrote:I dig that Argon, and personally I would prefer a more meaty spear block vs the little doobers. More skinks and more sallies are certainly nice, for drops and also killing things. The loss of the 4th terradon is a sad thing (for casualties and rock dropping) but realistically for fighting things that they should fight (war machines, light cav flanks, etc) I suppose 3 is about all that get to fight anyway.

- Salvage

I agree that the Saurus could be bigger. The next logical size is twenty-one for spears. Another option is to go for more all-together and take HW but that sort of limits the list more and takes it in a different direction.
The Terradon loss should be fine. Three is ideal for war machine hunting; four serves better for flank hits and light cav fighting. The base size makes it hard to justify taking more for any reason, though.

RiTides wrote:
I like that list, too, although I think I'd be tempted to think about dropping a salamander:
If you did you could add:
-a fourth terradon
-a temple guard
-4 skinks to buff two of the units up to 12

or swap one to a Razordon for more flank protection. Decent ideas, the Sallies are going to cut through high Sv blocks pretty well though.

RiTides wrote:
I haven't seen too much of skink skirmishers; it may be best to keep them to minimum size, but you'd get more poisoned shots this way...

Minimum sized Skink Skirmishers are the way to to go. Eleven is usually okay for some filler but anything past that get get out of hand quickly. They really aren't there to do any major kill (even if they wind up doing so sometimes!).

Actually, I like that best... changing the loner one to a Razordon for variety (and flank protection). Nice