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Well, heres how I see it. Mutations are becoming more rampant, and the Inquisition is getting less tolerant. Gene-seed is starting to become more corrupted, and it seems that even some the oldest chapters are suffering from some bad mutations. What also makes it even worse, is that the secret of creating gene-seed is lost. So is it possible that the Space marines will die with no one one else to make more gene-seed? And please, don't make the "No, they won't die, because GW will never advance the story" joke.

Geneseed is getting corrupted more often? Where on EARTH did you see this? That idea is pure insanity as it is as stable as it ever was, though as always it has its imperfections.

But no, as we already discussed in a previous topic, they are not. Try the search function as this topic has been discussed for pages before.

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:Geneseed is getting corrupted more often? Where on EARTH did you see this?

Ever heard of the Soul Drinkers?


Yes. From all the fluff I've read, including the BRB segment anout the Time of Ending, Space Marines are becoming scarce.
The recovery of geneseed is paramount to ensure the survival of a chapter, so every bit of geneseed left unrecovered is higly detremental to the marines. Whenever a marine is obliterated beyound recovery, he can never be replaced.

lordrevege wrote:

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:Geneseed is getting corrupted more often? Where on EARTH did you see this?

Ever heard of the Soul Drinkers?


Yes. From all the fluff I've read, including the BRB segment anout the Time of Ending, Space Marines are becoming scarce.
The recovery of geneseed is paramount to ensure the survival of a chapter, so every bit of geneseed left unrecovered is higly detremental to the marines. Whenever a marine is obliterated beyound recovery, he can never be replaced.

The Soul Drinkers were mutated directly by Chaos. They didn't have messed up geneseed.

Their geneseed was corrupted.
OR "mutated by chaos"

Their geneseed was mutated from a Daemon prince messing with them.

It is insane to believe a normal chapter would succumb to this since thier faith is soo damn strong and their day so organized. It RARELY happens at all, though when it does it usually effects ONE person in the mix.

lordrevege wrote:Their geneseed was corrupted.
OR "mutated by chaos"

Except that's rarely rarely super rarely the case in terms of gene-seed.

Gene-seed, as it stands, exists in two places. There's a storage on either Mars or Terra that is considered 'pure' and is used for testing against the Chapters' own repositories and stockpiles. It's enough of a stockpile that, should a disaster befall a Chapter and they can't recover the gene-seed or it's corrupted in some way, the Chapter can be rebuilt.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gene-seed, as it stands, exists in two places. There's a storage on either Mars or Terra that is considered 'pure' and is used for testing against the Chapters' own repositories and stockpiles. It's enough of a stockpile that, should a disaster befall a Chapter and they can't recover the gene-seed or it's corrupted in some way, the Chapter can be rebuilt.

You say it exists in two places. Where is this other place?
Does it not exist when it's stored within the bodies of SM?

Have you read Storm of Iron?

Hydra Cordatus was one of several gene-seed storage facilities. And it fell to chaos
"there was enough genetic material stored here to create untold thousands of twisted warriors of Chaos."
-Storm of Iron, page 399

I'd say that means a lot of geneseed was corrupted when it was used to create csms for Abaddon.
Graham McNiel never lies.

lordrevege wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Gene-seed, as it stands, exists in two places. There's a storage on either Mars or Terra that is considered 'pure' and is used for testing against the Chapters' own repositories and stockpiles. It's enough of a stockpile that, should a disaster befall a Chapter and they can't recover the gene-seed or it's corrupted in some way, the Chapter can be rebuilt.

You say it exists in two places. Where is this other place?
Does it not existed when it's stored within the bodies of SM?

I'd figure that the mention of "testing against the Chapters' own repositories would be enough, but I guess I need to break out the crayons.
You have the gene-seed stockpiles that the High Lords of Terra have access to(the Terran/Martian ones used as a kind of 'baseline' for testing) and then the gene-seed stockpiles of the Chapters itself.
The gene-seed that is implanted within the Battle-Brothers themselves does not count towards this, as if it is recovered on the field and found to be tainted, it's destroyed.

Have you read Storm of Iron?

Hydra Cordatus was one of several gene-seed storage facilities. And it fell to chaos
"there was enough genetic material stored here to create untold thousands of twisted warriors of Chaos."
-Storm of Iron, page 399

COMPLETELY different story. The ways in which Chaos Space Marines are creating 'new' Chaos Marines are VERY different than the way the Loyalists are doing it. Loyalists test for all kinds of parameters to ensure a viable match and not to mention screening the subjects beforehand.
The Chaos Marines, as it stands, don't object to taking a tiny bit of gene-seed and a buttload of Daemonic favor to create replacements from the ranks of subjects who wouldn't accept the original gene-seed.

It results in a 'flawed' subject, with all the powers and bonuses of the Astartes...but drawbacks such as instability, random mutations, etc are offset by the fact that the Chaos Marines can make more Marines with far less gene-seed than the Astartes.

I'd say that means a lot of gene-seed was corrupted when it was used to create csms for Abaddon.
Graham McNeil never lies.

See above.
And the loss of one facility, while bad,

These rumors must of sprung up when people learned how badly my orks were beating the SM.

Where does you fluff come from? Wikipedia?
You site none of your sources.
You say all of this stuff, with nothing to back it up.

how about this quote?
"Thousands of tanks ran in ordered lines into the darkness"
-Storm of Iron, Page 398
That was a description of the gene-seed storage chambers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'd figure that the mention of "testing against the Chapters' own repositories would be enough, but I guess I need to break out the crayons.

No need to get flamming on me Kanluwen

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Progenoid
Only ready source I have, that I can link to.

Also:
Citing novels is kind of silly, because the novels get retconned all the time.

Kanluwen wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Progenoid
Only ready source I have, that I can link to.

Also:
Citing novels is kind of silly, because the novels get retconned all the time.

Okay. That solidifies your claim that geneseed is submitted and reviewed to purge imperfections.

But before I continue this discussion, I must know, are you calling my fluff incorrect?
If so any statement I make will be void and pointless to you

Space marines are just as susceptible to direct chaos hijacking/corruption/geneseed-snatching in the year 40,000 as they ever were. Nothing has changed. The things that OP stated are incorrect. There is no basis for this argument. SM are not going extinct.

ph34r wrote: SM are not going extinct.

So would you say that this statement is false:

SM chapters are loosing more astartes than they are recruiting/recovering?

I havn't read any fluff supporting the notion that gene-seed can be grown by the current imperium,
so for every Progenoid gland lost, the chapter comes closer to doom

It's obvious they AREN'T going extinct. For gosh sakes, they're the Emperor's Finest! GW's posterboys would never go low on geneseed and even if they did, they'd soon find SOME WAY to recreate it. jeez guys, you gotta realize. Fluff is HIGHLY RELATED to the market and sales.

lordrevege wrote:

ph34r wrote: SM are not going extinct.

So would you say that this statement is false:

SM chapters are loosing more astartes than they are recruiting/recovering?

I havn't read any fluff supporting the notion that gene-seed can be grown by the current imperium,
so for every Progenoid gland lost, the chapter comes closer to doom

The Imperium has vast stores of geneseed, if they have a reason to they can make a new chapter. The number of chapters lost is less than the number created, or so it seems based on the fluff.

Chaos marines, on the other hand, seem to die by the thousands at every opportunity. A chapter sized force plus 600 daemon engines were swept away by a hive fleet. IIRC it took only a couple chapters of marines being wiped to stop several tendrils of tyranids.

lordrevege wrote:

ph34r wrote: SM are not going extinct.

So would you say that this statement is false:

SM chapters are loosing more astartes than they are recruiting/recovering?

I havn't read any fluff supporting the notion that gene-seed can be grown by the current imperium,
so for every Progenoid gland lost, the chapter comes closer to doom

I'm speculating here, but I believe a SM could usually contribute his progenoid glands once before his death.
(I think it's the description of the organ, in the IA, saying that there are two identical glands, harvested at different times in his life)
So for every SM whose geneseeed is recovered, you have the capability to produce two more in the future. Actually, it pretty much has to be so, otherwise the 10% geneseed tithe/purity sample would have been crippling to any chapter, as they would have no more geneseed left after 10 tithes. And, the Imperium couldn't have afforded to experiment with new specialist chapters.

It's speculation, but still plausible that, with a predicted increase of SM casualties, as a result of Abaddon's 13th Crusade, galaxy wide necron awakenings and the intergalactic bugs, they are going to lose marines faster they can replace them. They might become extinct a century within M42, even if their geneseed was recovered, simply because there would be hardly anyone left to implant new recruits.

Or, they could actually keep up the recruitment drive, and simply turn extinct because they've been exhausting their geneseed supplies faster than they could harvest them (especially since the Imperium recently lost half its stocks)

Lupe wrote:


It's speculation, but still plausible that, with a predicted increase of SM casualties, as a result of Abaddon's 13th Crusade, galaxy wide necron awakenings and the intergalactic bugs, they are going to lose marines faster they can replace them. They might become extinct a century within M42, even if their geneseed was recovered, simply because there would be hardly anyone left to implant new recruits.

Or, they could actually keep up the recruitment drive, and simply turn extinct because they've been exhausting their geneseed supplies faster than they could harvest them (especially since the Imperium recently lost half its stocks)

Why should the space marines run out of geneseed?
There was a great crusade and whole legions were able to replace losses.
There was a following 'civil war' and the space marines were still able to rebuild strength.
There were lost chapters over the last 10 millenia and still the amount of space marines is estimated at 1000x1000.
There were more than 20 foundings of new chapters and still we see claims that geneseed cannot be grown.
( codex space marines page 8 => geneseed, adeptus terra. )
Seems there is exactly nothing to back up any idea of space marines becoming extinct.

Gene seed can't be grown without SM. Each SM can provide more than 1 geneseed.

I recall reading that geneseed could grown, because the creation of a new chapter involved the chosen geneseed being implanted into slaves (presumably at some lower, inactivated level; the antibodies from being jabbed with a dead virus are the same as a live) and harvested as soon as it was ready, duplicating the new chapter's seed to some 800 units which is enough to get going. Which was why creating a new chapter generally took well over one hundred years.

However, this was ages ago, so that could be been ret-conned.

We need a summing up here...
The original question was "Are the Marines becoming extinct?"
So far, I have not seen a clear argument that they are.
The next question posed was "Is the geneseed becoming more unstable?" The Soul Drinkers were used as an example that it is.
Myself and some others have made the argument that the Drinkers' geneseed was directly corrupted by Chaos, and did not degrade naturally over time. Then that question got left by the wayside, for the new one "Can the Imperium create new geneseed?"
Storm of Iron was used as a source for the statement "No they can't."
Others have said "Yes they can."
And now everyone is wondering "Where do you get geneseed anyway?"
Many people have said "Marines, duh! They have them inside them."
And now the thread is a big confused mess.

Soooooooooo...
Someone should answer the first question, mayhaps.

The whole issue of geneseed is screwed up because some bits of fluff say it can be grown in tanks while other bits say it grows in the SM's body and absorbs into the Progenoids from the other organs (Great Macca and so on.)

It can't be both ways.

There wouldn't be any point putting progenoids into the SMs if they could absorb geneseeds from inside tanks.

ph34r wrote:Gene seed can't be grown without SM. Each SM can provide more than 1 geneseed.

really? I was under the impression that the progeniod gland only produced a single geneseed

Clean up:


Geneseed is the basic set of implants. Normally a complete set, but some Legions/Primarchs had issues with stability and it is
said for most sources to be NOT a complete set anymore ( M42 ). Still some like the Ultramarines have a complete set.

To create a space marine, some implants are neccessary whilst others are 'features' that could be lived without much drawback.

Pure vs corrupted, means that corrupted geneseed tends to malfunction and get you mutants and monstrosities that may be unable to use the space marine armor and wargear. Pure geneseed gives you a better chance to create more marines with less risk to loose
the aspirants at a late stage of the process.

Storm of iron was brought up to prove the ability of the traitors to refill their ranks, but seriously if you read the book and the following parts of that series, it is obvious that the IW method leads to hundreds of mutants ( and funnily loyal to the emperor ) and only a few new marines. Seems it rather proves that the question should be: do the CSM of the original legions become extinct?
Plus, the IW needed stolen geneseed, so they were not able to use their own.

Then we got also the idea of the geneseed beeing grown inside the marine. May i suggest to think about the whole process of the creation of a space marine? The implants ARE grown in tanks. The "data" of the space marines organ is the source to grow these implants, so we should put the order back on its feet and start from either a space marine codex, index astartes or "sons of dorn".

#first, there was a set of geneseed. pure information.
#then, the emperor and his scientists have grown the implants based on that info.
#implanted those into the aspirants and also conditioned them ( indoctrination )
#Primarchs, were useful, but not neccessary cause the legions were already formed when they met.

Therefore, geneseed is neccessary to create a space marine, but the amount of geneseed is not restricted to the number of space marines if the process is done outside a chapter ( adeptus biologis ) as the emperor was able to build legions from scratch and the
adeptus terra is still able to order the creation of new chapters without involving space marines.

The theory of the losses overwhelming the space marines ability to recrut suffers from its false interpretation of losses:
The number of space marines has not ceased.
The losses "in-game" and in-fluff" were never compatible.
The imperium is able to replace lost chapters.
The "pro-marine" fluff hints of a quote of 1000 dead enemies for every single marine. Can those opponents live with that?
The space marines don't fight a war of attrition, the IG is the meatshield in this case....

lordrevege wrote:

ph34r wrote:Gene seed can't be grown without SM. Each SM can provide more than 1 geneseed.

really? I was under the impression that the progeniod gland only produced a single geneseed

There are two of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow there are two of them!!