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Here is the best Ork list I think could be fielded for 'Ard Boyz 2010, given that the time limits make playing my beloved horde difficult. Similar lists did well in 2009, I saw quite a few battlewagon lists at the finals. I won't be playing this list given that it would cost me nearly $500 to acquire all the models I don't have (burnas, MANz, and battlewagons.) So this is mostly an exercise in 'what if.'

HQ:
225 - Ghazghkull Thraka
90 - Big Mek with KFF and 'eavy armour

Elites:
225 - 15 Lootas
225 - 15 Burnas
290 - 7 Meganobz with 2 kombi-skorchas
150 - Dedicated Battlewagon transport with red paint, armour plates, grot riggers, deff rolla, boarding plank, kannon, and big shoota

Troops:
240 - 20 Slugga boyz with 'eavy armour, Nob with PK and BP
235 - 30 Shoota boyz with 3 big shootas, Nob with PK and BP
255 - 6 Meganobz with 3 kombi-skorchas
150 - Dedicated Battlewagon transport with red paint, armour plates, grot riggers, deff rolla, boarding plank, kannon, and big shoota

Heavy Support:
145 - Battlewagon (for burnas) with red paint, armour plates, grot riggers, deff rolla, kannon, and big shoota
150 - Battlewagon (for sluggas) with red paint, armour plates, grot riggers, deff rolla, boarding plank, kannon, and big shoota
120 - Battlewagon (for lootas) with kannon and 4 big shootas

What makes this list excellent: Flexible threats with 'ard boyz for taking on things that lots of regular attacks work well on, meganobz for things that need lots of PK love, Ghaz for anything that ignores armor saves, burnas for damn near anything, and even the meganobz have kombi-skorchas that can let them act like mini burna-wagons at need. It has lootas for breaking transports at range, boarding planks and deff rollas for taking out vehicles up close, a mob of 30 shoota boyz for holding objectives who can support the advance elements if need be and take on things that deep strike behind your battlewagons. Model count is exactly 100, which is pretty solid. Ghaz rides with the 7 Meganob mob and they go for the hardest thing, most likely dying as they cut a brutal swath. The 6 MANz I'd be a little more conservative with where feasible, going after secondary targets that need to die and putting the extra flamer to use.

I'm considering actually putting more combi-skorchas in with the Meganobz for wound allocation and more flamery death for things they don't want to assault unweakened. But, I don't really see a place that I want to take points from for such a use.

And in defense of the 'ard boyz, they take much fewer casualties from having their transport shot out from under them and don't have to worry as much about no retreat! casualties. With Space Woofs being so popular my mechanized boyz need to be able to take on grey hunters in CC confidently, and regular boyz just aren't up to the task. Grey hunters are incredibly hard for boyz to beat the turn they use their wolf standard as they'll kill 9 or 10 boyz with 6+ saves and only lose 4 or so in return including the PK thus causing normal boyz to lose another 5 or so in no retreat! casualties leaving them easy pickings next round of combat (assuming the Nob took a wound so they're still fearless.) 'Ard boyz OTOH will only lose 6 or so and kill roughly the same amount, only losing 1 more to no retreat. In the next round there would be approx. 13 'ard boyz left, enough to finish the marines now that they aren't making armor saves almost like terminators and killing as effectively versus the 5 or 6 boyz that would be left from normal 6+ save Orks, which the grey hunters can deal with largely before any get to strike.

Anyhow, thoughts? Weaknesses? Strengths?

Just a general point on tactics:

I suggest you thoroughly read over the tank shock rules before you get out there. A few of the items in there could make a saavy player very able to play around the Deffrollas. Knowing them will be very key to you winning games.

Overall very nice, vertesile list I think, but instead of giving lootas a BW, give them to the shoota boyz, just deploy lootas in cover, hope for sucess and fire away!

I see mostly two problems. One, too one-dimensional (all assault, barely any ranged); and two, too few targets, allowing your enemies to focus fire by default.

For the first part, the ranged anti-tank, you basically have lootas and some kannons (which can only be fired if you move 6" or less, which your BWs won't, except for the loota wagon). The lootas will do their job against lighter vehicles, and if you get to assault range, the rollas and BP/klaws will handle the rest, but how do you crack anything from range? I would strongly encourage you to build in your mobile, ranged anti-tank of choice (koptas, buggies, tankbustas in BW, etc.) and get some NUMBERS of shots out there. More lootas wouldn't hurt either.

The second issue is that of numbers. You're running 4 wagons and a horde. Most Ard Boy lists will have tons of anti-tank shots, so those wagons, with only 4 viable targets, just won't last unless you are insanely lucky with the KFF. You just need more targets in the army to diversify enemy fire. Mixing in buggies, koptas, etc. will do this. Further, the ranged anti-tank will eliminate some of the enemy shooting and increase the survival chances of your hammer units.

The rest of the composition, I don't give much comment. I'm not a fan of MANZ, but some people favor them, so that's really your preference and what's worked for you. I would say, though, that if you're looking for more points, cutting one of the MANZ units is probably the way to start and could easily outfit your army with a number of buggies, koptas, lootas, etc.

Skarboy wrote:
The second issue is that of numbers. You're running 4 wagons and a horde. Most Ard Boy lists will have tons of anti-tank shots, so those wagons, with only 4 viable targets, just won't last unless you are insanely lucky with the KFF.

Really, I only need the 4 assault wagons to survive 1 or 2 rounds of shooting depending on if I go first or second. With AV 14 that tends not to be a big deal against most lists, unless they're sporting a couple of manticores anyway. Mostly I don't see where I can put in a 5th assault wagon. With my elites full I'd have to drop either the burnas or lootas to take more battlewagons since I'd need to take more nobs or meganobz to get more battlewagons.

One change I am thinking about is dropping the lootas' battlewagon for some deffkoptas. The koptas could fly behind the battlewagon chunk for cover/total obscurement and jump over to get their shots when needed. Thing is, a deffkopta only has a 6% chance to destroy an AV 12 vehicle with its rokkits (half the chance of an equivalent amount of points of lootas.) It feels like that wouldn't really be adding anything to the army besides kill points. I'd love to have more lootas but that would mean taking out the burnas because the elite slots are full.

Well, there are many things I could do with 120 points (adding to the meganobz being the most likely.) How much do the lootas need to hide in a battlewagon? The reason they're in there now is that they are my only reliable ranged anti-tank. Their battlewagon is putting out 12 strength 5 shots and a blast or strength 8 ap 3 shot, so it's not exactly idle, but I'm open to suggestions for its replacement, especially since there will often be a shoota boyz mob nearby to help them. Or if not replacing their battlewagon, where to find the points to get something else to put in their wagon? (and retool their wagon for its new role.)

Culler wrote:Really, I only need the 4 assault wagons to survive 1 or 2 rounds of shooting depending on if I go first or second. With AV 14 that tends not to be a big deal against most lists, unless they're sporting a couple of manticores anyway. Mostly I don't see where I can put in a 5th assault wagon. With my elites full I'd have to drop either the burnas or lootas to take more battlewagons since I'd need to take more nobs or meganobz to get more battlewagons.

Well, YMMV, but I've seen plenty of lists (IG and SW in particular) that can annihilate mech pretty much at will, and with only 4 hard targets, a couple will go down. You can't count on AV14 either, as most good Ard Boyz lists will have some maneuver to get to the side/rear: wolf scouts, deepstrike terminators/dreads, melta speeders, outflanking Chosen with 5 meltaguns, etc. This doesn't account for the "normal" anti-armor that is prevalent throughout most lists and that will ramp up once you get within the 24" bubble, nor for the fact that 3 or 4 BWs are hard to maneuver; they leave a large footprint and a competent player will be able to herd you via impassable terrain and vehicle roadblocks by throwing sacrificial rhinos, wartrukks, etc. in front of your vehicles. If your RAM (not the deffrolla, the RAM) doesn't blow up the vehicle, your movement stops. I would not count on charging within 1 or 2 turns against quality opponents.

As far as ranged anti-tank (buggies, koptas, etc.) goes, remember they serve two purposes: taking out the enemy at the point of contact and serving as additional targets to take fire off the battlewagons. They also give you options for maneuver, blocking LOS/enemy movement, and otherwise facilitating your attempt to hammer the enemy. Lootas can do this as well, but they can be blocked from LOS by terrain and your own BWs sometimes when you need them the most. And your 6% figure is only part of the story. You are looking at destruction only; a "cannot shoot" result against a tank is fine. It buys you a turn of movement. So that one twin-linked rokkit actually has a 26% chance of a glance plus vs AV12, which is more than enough for what you need. With massed fire (multiple rokkits, lootas, etc.) those odds stack and you start getting wrecks, immobilizations, and weapon destroyed. Those limited odds are why orks need more guns, not why they shouldn't have them.

Anyway, I've said my peace. I urge you to playtest to see what works against solid Ard Boy lists. At 2500 points, most armies will be able to throw out grotesque numbers of shots and I think that lots of shots beats small number of targets pretty much every time.

Culler wrote:

Skarboy wrote:
The second issue is that of numbers. You're running 4 wagons and a horde. Most Ard Boy lists will have tons of anti-tank shots, so those wagons, with only 4 viable targets, just won't last unless you are insanely lucky with the KFF.

Really, I only need the 4 assault wagons to survive 1 or 2 rounds of shooting depending on if I go first or second. With AV 14 that tends not to be a big deal against most lists, unless they're sporting a couple of manticores anyway. Mostly I don't see where I can put in a 5th assault wagon. With my elites full I'd have to drop either the burnas or lootas to take more battlewagons since I'd need to take more nobs or meganobz to get more battlewagons.

One change I am thinking about is dropping the lootas' battlewagon for some deffkoptas. The koptas could fly behind the battlewagon chunk for cover/total obscurement and jump over to get their shots when needed. Thing is, a deffkopta only has a 6% chance to destroy an AV 12 vehicle with its rokkits (half the chance of an equivalent amount of points of lootas.) It feels like that wouldn't really be adding anything to the army besides kill points. I'd love to have more lootas but that would mean taking out the burnas because the elite slots are full.

Well, there are many things I could do with 120 points (adding to the meganobz being the most likely.) How much do the lootas need to hide in a battlewagon? The reason they're in there now is that they are my only reliable ranged anti-tank. Their battlewagon is putting out 12 strength 5 shots and a blast or strength 8 ap 3 shot, so it's not exactly idle, but I'm open to suggestions for its replacement, especially since there will often be a shoota boyz mob nearby to help them. Or if not replacing their battlewagon, where to find the points to get something else to put in their wagon? (and retool their wagon for its new role.)

I counted 5 wagons, which can last a couple of turns against a lot of lists, but I think more lootas would be good. Maybe get rid of the Elite MANZ for some? More anti tank is always good here.

The stuff that will take out your wagons fast is mobile melta, so take it out first.

Man I wish you could squeeze in one more unit of lootas.