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I'm buiding a white scars army, trying to keep it competative as I can but keeping inline with the "fast or nothing" ideal.

Heres how it is so far.

Captain
Bike, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Bolt Pistol
Command Squad
Bike, Power Weapon, Storm Shield x 3
Bike, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield x1
Apothacary


Captain
Bike, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Bolt Pistol
Command Squad
Bike, Power Weapon, Storm Shield x 3
Bike, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield x1
Apothacary

Sgt
Bike, (Insert Weapon here)
Squad
Bike, Melta Gun x 2
Bike x 1
Attack Bike, Multi Melta

Sgt
Bike, (Insert Weapon here)
Squad
Bike, Melta Gun x 2
Bike x 1
Attack Bike, Multi Melta

Sgt
Bike, (Insert Weapon here)
Squad
Bike, Melta Gun x 2
Bike x 1
Attack Bike, Multi Melta

3x Speeders, Flamers, Multi Melta


I'm unsure of how it plays out by way of command squad. It says you can take a storm shield, but you don't actually lose the bolter, so is it 3 attacks per, or only 2 because of the shield.. if this is the case, they're going to Lightning Claws at 2 up.

Moving Forward, would be to max out the bike squads, adding more speeders.

What do you think?

340 points for a Command Squad is a waste.

You might as well fill out your bike squads with those points

It is only 2 attacks for your Storm Shield bikers due to the storm shield rules(page 101).

I recently Playtested a similar list; it did quite well. My differences were Th+SS on the Captain, 4 full Bike Squads with HB attack bikes, and 2xFlamers, power weapon and Melta bombs, and 9 MM attack Bikes. I tabled my opponent in turn 4.

I'd take a storm shield on the captain as well. As the entire command squad is for close combat a single bolt pistol won't make much odds. Taking a second captain and command squad is costly though, you thought of a MoF on a bike with a conversion beamer or a chaplain or re-roll goodness or even a librarian for psychic powers? I just don't think the other unit is providing a benefit.

Sgt's on bikes should have power fists to smack tanks in case meltas do not get the job done.

Hrm..

I've vassal'd this list a few times and really had fun with it.

I'll be switching the power weaps to claws, it makes more sense for sure on the command squad.

The second command squad I found to be pretty exceptional if you run them together, but that's just me. I play against a lot of mech here, and once they get popped they usually get facestomped by the command squad. I'll consider a Libby and try that out a few times before making a decision, only 1 or 2 eldar players around, the rest for some reason avoid Psykers... no idea why.

Any reason for the storm shield on the Captain? Is it worth 15 pts for 1 more point of save? Geniune question, and lookin for your opinion.

I know a lot of people come asking for list validation, I'm actually seeking what people would fear most when facing bikers.

Out of interest, how much does that command squad cost? And yes claws would be better.

Well, yeah 3+ invulnerable is better than 4+ invulnerable and makes the captain like a terminator armour which can do sweeping advances. Makes the captain invincible.

The entire Command Squad is 520 all in with the captain.

Adding a shield makes it 535.

Eventually the army will be a 2500pt machine, which is where the 2nd command squad comes in. Think it would be better just to run 1, and bolster the rest of the crew for the time being, then move on to 2500 with a second command squad?

Captain: looks ok.
Command Squad: go with 3 lightning claws instead of 3 power weapons…much better.

2 Such Captain/command squads is boring which is just IMO, but it also becomes a trick pony list. It’s 12 models…granted pretty durable, but it’s far too easy to overestimate their durability.
I’d say maybe make one into a sort of shooty platform and have a different HQ choice on a bike say a libby or chappy as the second Captain doesn’t offer very much past the first.

Your listing of the bike squad is confusing to me.
Anyway, 3 identical squads is again boring, while the other special weapons are amazing on bikers. In addition at 1850, these squads are small and fragile.

In addition, though you have 2 uber squads and some Tlbolters, there is an issue with horde control, 3 Speeders is not a solid plan IMO.

As for moving forward, I suggest the suggestions above and yes, filling out the 3 bike squads is good, or just 2 and add another smallish squad, but I feel past 1500, you’ll need some element of either Mech/walker or Foot dudes… objectives above the second floor sucks for a biker army.

Yeah, I got punked with a 2nd floor objective already, the game ended as a tie but it did point out a glaring flaw for bikes.

Sorry, the bike squads are just 4 bikes, and 1 attack bike, maxed meltas... so 2 melta guns, and a multi melta on the attack bike. I'm looking for more feedback on what to take for the SGT.

Boring yes, but the game around here is "mech or bust" so melta its what works unfortunately.

Captain
Bike, Relic Blade, bolt pistol
Command Squad
Bike x3, lightning claw x3, Storm Shield x3, meltagun x3, melta bombs x3
Bike x1, Thunder Hammer x1, Storm Shield x1, meltagun x1, meltabombs x1
Apothacary

560 pts. Do 2 of these.

Bike squads:

Sgt Bike, combi melta
Bike x2, Melta Gun x2
Bike x 1
Attack Bike, Multi Melta

200 pts. Do 3 of these.

This leaves 130 points.

I plan on doing a Techmarine on bike. Give TM a bike, power weapon, and harness for 125 pts. On charge, that's 3 PW attacks plus 3 PF attacks. Attach him to one of the Command squads and punish people.

Leaving 5 points for a meltabomb on bike sgt. or whatever.

Idea is to use command squads to kill what comes out of the vehicles. If you lose a HtH, auto fallback and get a "pseudo hit and run". Be careful with this maneuver as it's a 3d6 fallback and enemy could escort you off table.

@Old Man Ultramarine:

27 models...oh dear.
Win big or lose big.

Xb3rg wrote:The entire Command Squad is 520 all in with the captain.

Adding a shield makes it 535.

Eventually the army will be a 2500pt machine, which is where the 2nd command squad comes in. Think it would be better just to run 1, and bolster the rest of the crew for the time being, then move on to 2500 with a second command squad?

Assault terminators and a land raider are 450 points. I'd rather have them tbh and get the 2+ invulnerable save along with a mobile fortress adding fire power.

That's something I was considering, putting melta's on the command squads, but is that not overkill for what they already are, mind you the idea of busting open a can and then assaulting it without having to support with a melta squad is tasty.


Why no skimmers? No room? What would you do to take that to 2500?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercer wrote:

Assault terminators and a land raider are 450 points. I'd rather have them tbh and get the 2+ invulnerable save along with a mobile fortress adding fire power.

I agree with you, but there's SO many of those lists here. I know it works, and works well, but the dilemma I run into is this: How can I play Space Marines, without being the same thing everyone else is running?

... mind you outflanking land raiders gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside pending it worked

Sanctjud wrote:
2 Such Captain/command squads is boring which is just IMO, but it also becomes a trick pony list. It’s 12 models…granted pretty durable, but it’s far too easy to overestimate their durability.

Your listing of the bike squad is confusing to me.
Anyway, 3 identical squads is again boring,

This list needs to be boring,

Horde control? TL bolters on bikes can thin ranks.

Obviously, this list is lean on model count. Needs to be played carefully and use "wolfpack" style tactics. Kill something and move on to next target.

Remember "Combat Tactics" is your friend.

Xb3rg wrote:

mercer wrote:

Assault terminators and a land raider are 450 points. I'd rather have them tbh and get the 2+ invulnerable save along with a mobile fortress adding fire power.

I agree with you, but there's SO many of those lists here. I know it works, and works well, but the dilemma I run into is this: How can I play Space Marines, without being the same thing everyone else is running?

... mind you outflanking land raiders gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside pending it worked

I totally agree mate. You've got to look what gives you more bang for your buck. Though bikers are tough.

Bikers are tough

They are tough, but the cost means they generally have a low model count.

So...IMO it balances out to being MEQ in terms of removal options.
Don't overestimate the durability.
________________

@Old Man Ultramarine:

Horde control? TL bolters on bikes can thin ranks.

I don't know... I run a pure biker list too.
He has 25 TL bolters if they were to forgo some specials.
I have 6 hvy bolters and 37 TL bolters at 1500... and it's not enough for me when cover is taken into account.
/shrug, just noting my opinions on it.

Obviously, this list is lean on model count. Needs to be played carefully and use "wolfpack" style tactics. Kill something and move on to next target.

Which, in general, makes any bike heavy army hit or miss. As a one trick pony, it's not hard for the opponent to react to a biker list, he doesn't even need to change any units, just how he deploys.

Remember "Combat Tactics" is your friend.

But also remember it's not something to spam, it is a risk/reward ability, it can suck so, so bad.

@ Sanctjud
For record it's 28 models
Play big or go home.

Going up to 2500

I would add bike squads or do the LRR and 6 TH/SS termies.

or

add 2 more bike techmarines and whatever

or

landspeeders (set these up and more or less horder control x2 HF or x2 HB each)

Well you said 'plan' on the techmarine.
So the concrete number I went for 27... if it makes you feel better: "~27"

I feel the LR + Termies is something the bikers need, but the lack of proper armor saturation makes it a no-go.

More techmarnines is cool, augement the squads close range/combat prowess, but it's really expensive for something that's only one wound.
IMO they are great if they have some sort of multiplier on them to get the most out of them, like Khan's Furious Charge or a chappies reroll to hit.

Landspeeders (or attack bikes ) are a great addition.

I feel it's hard to nail down what is 'best' for a biker list because it can benefit from almost anything you choose from the SM codex...which is a good thing.

In addition, really?, that handfull of bolters+kiting+seudo-deathstars are enough for anti-horde? I don't know, it does seem very low to me, almost unthinkable... anything special you do to maximize it?

Actually playing V. a Black Tide BT army yesterday, I found that the command squads do well but aren't enough to ward off 100+ marines or so, and the other bike squads are somewhat weak. T5 will only carry so much. The addition of even 1 Land raider would have changed the game significantly. I do play with speeders as well.

I think my problem in that game is that I

1. Didn't wolfpack enough.
2. Should have kited smarter.

1 raider would have caused fits for the army though, not a lot of melta at all.

Moar thoughts!

T5 will only carry so much

God, I can't tell you how often I've preached this. YES YES YES, do not over estimate the durability of bikers. They are durable to most small arms, but there are plenty of weapons out there that go right through them and weight of fire will take its tole.

With the low model count, each death is felt.

1. Wolfpacking: I'm assuming the term means roughly to stay together. This is important. A line up and fight sort of tactic doesn't really work unless you know the opponent has a weaker list. What you want to do is create force concentrations on the board that temporarily has a points unbalance where you bring your army against a specified flank or unit and finish it off, while the rest of the opponents' army has to react by hopefully having to move.

2. Kiting is good against armies that have low higher ranged weapons (IE your game vs. traditional BT), though the board is only so big and running out of room is a real occurance.
So it's not about if you commit to a double tap/charge, but knowing when you have to make it.

As for the raider, (again) I'm torn on its inclusion. At least for you if you think it would have done better great, but banking on the opponent's lack of ranged AT is IMO not wise and down to your local Meta.

Raiders really need something to deliver IMO. They are taxi 1 and gun boat 2. The lack of armor saturation that turns me off from including a raider...maybe if you could fit in 2 Vindis to flank it and some speeders...even them I'm iffy about it as i personally feel 3 rhinos and then other tanks is the recipe for decent armor saturation.

Command Squads are cool. And are really killy on paper. In practice it's up and down, I've seen awesome showing of combat muscle, and not so much with hordes. They are somewhat in the average in dealing with MEQ and then switching to Hordes or vice versa, for the points it's pretty low number of quality attacks. Remember, quantity has a quality of its own .

The other bike squads are weak due to the MSU nature. As I've said, MSU has pros and cons and 'works' for some better than others. You maximize special weapons and focus on dealing damage before it's returned. This is best when you are 'wolfpacking' with respect to minimizing LoS to your squads or just keeping them at extreme but effective ranges on a particular flank.