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SM Capt. w. relic blade/SM Chaplain w. Term. Armor and storm bolter
130 points

SM Term. Assault Squad w. 3 TH/SS and 2 LC’s in a LR Crusader w. EA
465 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Flamer, Mis. Launcher, PF and combi-melta in Rhino
240 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Flamer, Mis. Launcher, PF and combi-melta in Rhino
240 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Flamer, Mis. Launcher, PF and combi-melta
205 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Flamer, Mis. Launcher, PF and combi-melta
205 points

LR
250 points

LR
250 points

Total: 1985

The list is supposed to be balanced and able to defeat anything it fights against. The last 2 Tac squads will mostly be transported by the LR's and the Captain/Chaplain will join the termies.

Main questions (although all comments are appreciated):
Captain or Chaplain??
What to do with the last 15 points??
Did I go overboard with the Tac Squads??
Are the Assault termies a liability since most likely every gun my opponent has that can harm the Crusader will be focussed at it??
What army would totally decimate my list??
What are possible improvements??

Thx, for reading this far and I hope I will get some comments.

first how does this list deal with vehicles?

yes you went over board with tactical squads, 2 is plenty, replace the 2 squads without rhinos with terminator assault squads, they cost 5 points less than the tactical squads, and make your other land raiders more threatening.

i would take land raider redeemers, they are 240 points, so give them multi-meltas, and they will take up the same points as your normal land raiders.

personally i would not take either of those hq choices, i would take a librarian, but if i had to chose, the chaplain.

Because the terminator assault squad is a big target, run them with all TH/SS it will make them alot more survivable than if you run LC in there.

Also dont take power fists in tactical squads, they are there to sit on objectives, and stay alive, the power fist does not help them do their job. you should not be using tactical marines to chase after vehicles and MC's. Also the chance of destroying a vehicle with a PF from a tac squad is to low for it to cost 25 points.

1. There are 4 TL LC's, 4 PF, 3 TH, 4 combi-melta's and 4 ML in there. Is that not enough?? If so then please tell me cause I am pretty new to this game.

2. I actually meant overboard on there loadout but ok. You're sure 2 Tac Squads are enough at 2000 points?? I thought troops were the shizzle in 5th ed?? Also, those two assualt termie squads take away a lot of flexibility.

3. Isn't this contradictionary to you're first comment, taking away 4 LC's. It also forces me to race at him with 3 LR's and I'm not sure if I like how this predetermes what I'm going to do each game.

4. Ok, why would you take the librarian?? And with which squad would you stick him?? How would you kit him out?? What power would you take?? Would you upgrade him to epistorary??

5. Ok, thx for the tip. I'll do that.

6. I gave them PF so they at least have the possibility of hurting a vehicle that comes race past or a MC that decides they seem like a tasty snack. Maybe it makes my opponent think twice. I want my units to be able to preform a variety of tasks so I have some tactical freedom and can grab any chance that comes along. Is this a childish and naieve way of looking at things??

Thx, for the (first) comment Scrotis although you have left me with a lot of questions. I hope you come back to answer them.

Cassius is better than a Termmie Chaplian and cheaper.

1. No not really LCs are great against armour 12 and under (as are the MLs) but you have very little the threaten armour 13-14.

2. 3 tac squads is a MINIMUM at 2000 points you could drop one for a 2nd Termmie assault squad giving you duel threat there. Then smatter a few Multimeltas on the LRs for heavy armour. I'm not sure you need all those combi-meltas in those squads. Combi meltas are for Sterngaurd and assault scout and bikers. Change the flamers for meltas to compensate.

4. Libby in Termie armour with Nullzone and Avenger/Smite/Vortex can be pretty terrifying in a Termie assault squad.

5. Yeah always run all your assault Terminators as TH/SS. It is a far more expensive combo to put on any other model in the list for a reason. It is far better, LCS only help you against hordes and your Termmies will suck against Hordes no matter how you equipe them, so why weaken their ability against your prefered targets (Elites and MCs)?

6. I personally swear by PFs on tacticals as do many players. It certainly does help them do their job of sitting on an objective and surviving! They are much harder to tank shock off an objective if the next turn you can assault him with a fist, likewise it is a deterent to being assaulted and will help you survive and assault as you do more damage to your opponent each turn thus reducing the damage he can do to you in the following turn.

I dont run power fists because for me it just sits in a rhino most of the game, and if it is on the board, and gets tank shocked, i most likely need 6s to hit the tank. and if i do get charged by a mc, a power fist in a tactical squad will be killed before the MC dies. so for 25 points it is not worth it.

2 tactical squads can combat squad to 4 scoring units which is easily enough to hold your objectives, and with all the larger threats in your army, if your opponent is going after your tactical squads, everything else is most likely already dead.

With cover being the way it is, sitting at long range with lascannons is not very effective, what you need is close range melta to be able to reliably take out AV 13 and 14, so multi-meltas on your land raiders is a good way to go.

racing at him with 3 land raiders full of terminators is not going to be stopped easily, killing 3 av14 tanks then 15 3+ invuln, 2+ armor infantry is very difficult. the land raiders also give your terminators about a 20" charge threat range (land raider move 12", unload with part of base within 2", charge 6") so if for any reason your opponent moves forward you have a turn 1 charge.

Suggest that your opponent is also running a LR list, but he runs 2 instead of your 3.

Then he has about 1000pts to bring a real army which focused on blowing vehicles. e.g. 6 speeders, or 4 IST rhinos with melta, or 3 las-predators...and so on.

When he have enough arms to blow your LR, and you have not enough to blow his, what will happen?

Ok, I have altered my list a bit but I'm still not sure about the massed assault termies. Thx, for the tips on MM's, TH/SS and Cassius though. This is my new list although I'm definitely thinking about adding 1 or 2 assault termie squads.

Cassius
125 points

SM Term. Assault Squad w. 5 TH/SS in a LR Crusader w. EA and MM
475 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF in Rhino
235 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF in Rhino
235 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF
200 points

SM Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF
200 points

LR w. MM
260 points

LR w. MM
260 points

Total: 1990

Any more comments are certainly welcome and especially those about assault termies.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

tokugawa wrote:Suggest that your opponent is also running a LR list, but he runs 2 instead of your 3.

Then he has about 1000pts to bring a real army which focused on blowing vehicles. e.g. 6 speeders, or 4 IST rhinos with melta, or 3 las-predators...and so on.

When he have enough arms to blow your LR, and you have not enough to blow his, what will happen?

If he has that much anti-tank weapons my troops should be relatively save, right? Or am I just being dumb here?

How would you deal with it. Drop one LR? What would take his place?

Thx for the comment tokugawa. You have given me something to think about.

The transport capabilities of a Land Raider is wasted if non-Termies are transported.
I'd take 2 Termie units in Land Raiders and 3 Tacticals in Rhinos.

Personally thought, there are 2 style of LR lists.

First is just use LRs for delivering elite melee units. The other parts of the army are normal troops(mechanized) or supporting units. Usually there would be a pair of LRs.

And the other style is take max LRs, for exceeding enemie's AT power. They would be accompanied by small troop units(in them) and few support units. (Sometimes you have no tactics to apply, just to hope them not to die before game ends...) It is not as effective as the first way, but since some armies like BT and DH could field 4 to 5 LRs at 2000pts...is also not that easy to lose.

3 LRs at 2000 could not get the advantage of either.

Ok, I get you're point and you're absolutely right. So I have decided to radically change the list since I don't really want to go for the 2 LR's with assualt termies because the list would get a bit one dimensional. This is the new list.

Librarian w. Force Dome and Avenger/Gate of Infinity/Smite
100 points

Dreadnought
105 points

Dreadnought
105 points

9 Sternguard Vet. with 6 combi-melta’s, 3 combi-flamers and PF in Rhino w. EA
345 points

Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF in Rhino
235 points

Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF in Rhino
235 points

Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF in Rhino
235 points

Tac. Squad w. Meltagun, Mis. Launcher, PF in Rhino
235 points

Land Speeder w. Heavy Flamer and MM
70 points

Land Speeder w. Heavy Flamer and MM
70 points

Predator Annihilator w. Heavy Bolter sponsons
130 points

Predator Annihilator w. Heavy Bolter sponsons
130 points

Total: 1995 points

Again any comments are welcome.

NEVER EVER take the TL Lascannon on the predator! Total waste of points. You give up a 15 points weapon in the auotcannon top get 1 lascannon shot for an extra 45 points, so in total you are spending 60 points on that lascannon. Go all daka for anti-infantry (AC/HB) or go with the Las-sponsons and Autocannon for taking on light to medium armour (AV10-12).

Looking at your list maybe swap those 2 pointless Pred for 3 Dakka Preds.

I'd also try to find a way to get DPs for the dreadnoughts footslogging them with Multimeltas is a bad idea. DP them both and give a TAC squad a DP. THen you can drop both Dreads on turn 1 to serious anti-armour fire power and give him a problem. One Dread in his midst isn't an issue 2 is a headache at least.

If you want the dreads footsloggiong equipe them for that. Dakka Dreads are great for staying in the back field (2 x tlAC each). 2 of those would give you serious anti-light armour firepower to take down transports before your speeders and tac can get in close to deal with heavy armour.

I dislike dread's in DP's because you are practically having a 140 points sacraficial unit which I dislike. I also dislike the idea of kitting them out for range because that will mean that they have no close combat ability thus taking away from their flexibility. However I do see your point of footslogging dreads with MM's being a bad idea so I'll just abandon the whole idea of dreads in my list. I'll probably take some more speeders in their place.

I don't really understand your hate about my predators so please eloborate on that. I would like to say though that I dislike the AC/LC's predators because they have to remain stationary for they can only 1 weapon if they move.

Thx, again for the comment.

If your dreads walk with your suqads, it should be given long-range firearms, a pair of TL-AC is a popular build(rifleman). MM has only 12 inches sufficient killing range, and it usually cannot got that close before wrecked.

...if you want to take MM on dreads, you should take drop pods to get into range. But it is still not very effective(MM is not twin-linked, and no HK missile updrades), you spend over 280 points on a pair of dreads to deliver...only 1.33 melta hits, and a AV12 walker cannot hold long in the center of enemy lines(Personally I never recommend droppod units of any sort).

I don't really understand your hate about my predators so please eloborate on that. I would like to say though that I dislike the AC/LC's predators because they have to remain stationary for they can only 1 weapon if they move.

This is true of any Pred not matter how you kit them out they have to remain stationary to fire all their guns. If you are building a competitive list you need to spend you points efficiently. Is 60 points for 1 twinlinked Lascannon ever an efficient spend? For me that is a big no.

Also what is your Pred designed to shoot given it has to fire all it's weapons at the same target. Lascannons are great against light to medium armour or MCs are poor against Heavy armour and over kill against infantry. Autocannons are good against light armour and MCs and can threaten medium armour. So both the Lascannon and Autocannon fulfill largely the same role in that weapons fit keep it firing at MCs and transports and it will do really well for you.

The AC/HB Predator is good for anti infantry pumping out 8 AP4 shots all at S5 or better. Again hjaving 2 shots and identical AP means the Autocannon suppliments the fire of the Heavy bolter. So when firring at your ideal targets (infantry with a Sv4+ or less) all you weapons are going well.

Now look at your config. If you fire at infantry the Lascannon that you've spent 60 points on is massive overkill and in general won't even do as well as the 45 points cheaper autocannon! Whilst you fire at light to medium armour and those heavy bolters are going to bounce harmlessly off whilst the TL Lascannon won't do near as much damage as 2 Lascannons would. So it does nothing well and is always wasting some of its armourment, is that an efficient way to spend points?

In terms of the dreads if you like dreads don't want them kitted out for long range fire and don't want to pod them then the Assault cannon and DCCW is a good loadout for walking across the battlefield and trying to engage the opposition.

Lots of good comments above. Tons of information to absorb.

My 2 cents:
four 10 man Tac squads is a waste, for many reasons. In a rhino they are mobile and the heavy is wasted. If combat squaded you'll have 4 5 man stationary combat squads chillin to be shot to pieces. Find a focus for your tacs and equip them to do that job well.
2 tacs is sufficient; 3 is plenty; 4 is a waste... at 2000pts.

I agree with the OP on preds but the other opinions are valid as well. one way or another keep em' dakka or lose them altogether. that much is certain.

Regarding the Dreads, I also fully concur with the comments herein. Rifleman is great for anti-infantry at long range. If you only equip em with MMs then pod them. 3 pods are a minimum if you are using any at all. That way you get two down on turn 2. Otherwise you are feeding the opponent your force in easy to chew, bite sized, pieces.

I love landspeeders. I include them in EVERY sm list I make. If i didn't have those I would have MM attack bikes. whichever you like is fine but if you need fast attack for MM delivery system then one of these two choices is a must. Have at least 3 of either.

Librarians are a personal fav as well. Mainly because I like psychic hoods and force weapons. However Cassisu rocks and is a bargain. The choice is yours. You can't lose as long as it works synergistically with your list.

Power Fists... what a debate. If you have them they never do anything. If you don't you always wish you did. They are expensive but I find I'd rather have them in those few occassions I need them then to regret saving 50 pts b/t two Tacs. E.g. just last night Shas'O (Tau character) was making a last stand for his demolished army by assaulting my combat squad. I missed with all of my 4 marines, suffered a casualty or two, but then instant deathed him with my Power fist wielding Serg. it felt great.

Drop a tac squad, change the sponsons on your Preds to Las, or drop the Las turret and make it daaaakkkaaaaa!

Also, I am a big supporter of the Rifleman dread at 125pts it's a great deal.

4 twin linked str. 7 shots is pretty nuts, especially at 48 inches. Meaning, if you play against another Mech force (which you mostly will in a competitive setting) you're going to want to pound on those transports. Also, TMCs get beat on by them too, sure they get their armor saves but TMCs are only 3+ now.

Also, being a walker you're more mobile when you fire.


The only real weakness I'd see in your list is you have no counter assault element. So be careful against an assault list.

oh i also noticed that every single stern has a combi bolter. I think this is unnecessary. A few combi meltas is all that is necessary. Stern are not meant to be wasted on run-of-the-mill infantry. No need for the flamers.

I'm just gonna ask opinions on induvidual units from now on because posting a list every time takes up a lot of time and space.

First a few comment.
Dreads are out. Drop Podding them is throwing away 2 KP's and 140 points and riflemanning them means losing their close-combat abilities which I dislike.
AC/HB pred's are in.
The combi-flamers are out since the sternguard can just use their bolters against infantry.
I dropped one tactical squad.

Now, the questions.
Is it a good idea to put Speeders in a squadron??
What is general opinion towards a command squad (I thought maybe a captain with Relic Blade/bolter and a command squad with all PW's in a Razorback w. EA could provide the assault element which my army needs)?
What are other good assault options in the SM:Codex (barring Assault Termies (for explaination see discussion above?

Please enlighten me with yor eternal wisdom forum.

Only run speeder squadrons if you have to. Otherwise, I don't think it ever provides a real benefit.