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One of my most hated rules is that you're not allowed to shoot into combat. The reasoning being that "Not even the most ruthless commander would order his men to fire on their comrades." or some such garbage.

What happened to GRIM DARK? What could be more grim/dark then sacrificing squads of men just to ensure that you have more time to fire at the enemy?

I had several different ideas on just how to resolve attacks on units in close combat:

1. When firing into close combat half of all attacks are resolved against your units and half are resolved against the enemies units. If the number of hits is uneven, resolve extra hits against your units.

2. All hits are allocated against the enemy's unit. All misses are counted as hits against your units.

3. The number of hits is divided proportionately based on the number of models each side has in combat. If the fractions don't come out evenly always round in favor of the enemy.

Blast and Template weapons would work function normally. Wounds caused by shooting are applied to the combat results of the next assault phase.


Another idea would be to use one of the above methods of resolving shots taken at units in close combat, but only certain designated units are deemed expendable enough to warrant firing upon. These units would gain the Expendable special rule that allows players to fire at units that they are engaged in close combat with.

Ex: An IG army is facing an Ork army. A mob of shoota boys is currently in close combat with a veteran squad on the left flank. On the right there is a mob of nobs fighting a squad of Penal Legionaries. Since the Penal Legion squad has the special rule Expendable, the IG player can fire into the combat with the Nobs, since the Vet Troopers do not have the Expendable special rule the IG playerr is not allowed to fire upon the shoota boys.

Some suggested units who would gain the Expendable special rule.
IG: Penal Legion Squads, Conscripts
Orks: Grots
Necorns: Scarabs
Tyranids: Rippers, Hormaguants, Termagants
Tau: None
Space Marines: None
Chaos Space Marines: Any squad with an mark opposing the mark of the most expensive HQ choice
Eldar: None

What do you think? Any comments are appreciated.

While the fluffy background and the idea in general sounds sound, I'm sure this would change the game mechanics to a huge degree. Imperial Guard would get even stronger, Penal legionnaires would be more common. Your game mechanic proposals sound good, though. Maybe you could play some test games and see how much stronger armies with expendable units get.

yeah that's helping the guard out way too much, my IG friend can already get like, 500 shots off at me with all his orders and platoons.

I love this idea....i hate how so many people throw their commanders into melee just so they cant be fired at next turn.

I like the Expendable USR idea and dividing the hits proportionately, but it might be "too much math" for the casual gamer when you get really complicated unit situations. I think friendly fire and suicide units have their roles in this universe. Like orks would think twice about firing at a unit tied up by grots...

Especially around ICs it makes some sense not to fire into CC in most cases, I think.

I mean, imagine a swift Eldar autarch in the midst of, what, ten Marines or warriors of equal size. An observer would probably not be able to see the Autarch for even a quarter of the time, because his field of vision is swamped by the Marines all trying to kill that spess elf ASAP.

But, again, around Guard it somehow makes cruel sense to order a whiteshield squad to swamp that Chaos Lord and then call in the Earthshaker barrage...

I think the resolution of blasts and templates is a problem. The way the mechanics for close combat are set up, there's not much you can do to avoid moving every model in your squad into base contact with each other. This makes them easy bait for templates. It is also inconsistent with what close combat is supposed to represent: a swirling melee where it is impossible to pick out your enemies without hitting your allies. The "big blob meets big blob" is an abstraction of this concept.

I think that because of this, hits from blasts and flamers would need to have some sort of division between the squads, much like regular shooting. A simple 4+ hits the enemy, 3- hits friends would probably be the quickest way of resolving this, and would stop single models from then being able to direct all of the shots at the enemy while still being able to - perplexedly - hold the entire enemy unit in place.

The "Expendable" rule sounds like a neat one. I would add Sisters Repentia, Arco-Flagellants, and Penitent Engines for Which Hunters, and Grotesques for Dark Eldar.

HiveFleetGoliath wrote:yeah that's helping the guard out way too much, my IG friend can already get like, 500 shots off at me with all his orders and platoons.

Yeah, I was thinking it might be too useful. Do you have any suggestions that would still allow for firing into melee but would reduce it's utility to a more acceptable level?

Maybe making Expendable an optional upgrade that costs additional points? Or maybe an upgrade like Ruthless, for an HQ unit that allows you to fire into close combat but reduces the leadership of all units under your command by 1?

The rounding in the opponents favor is already going to mitigate some of the options usefulness. Like if you fire a single lascanon, any hit by it will automatically be applied to your unit. Or if for instance you're in close combat with MEQ, a lasgun shot has a good chance of wounding your troops but very little chance of damaging the opponents unti.

Another, simpler way of handling things would be to allow units (either with an "expendable" special rule or just any in the game) to break and be swept up automatically, if their owner wants them to. The enemy would then be granted a consolidation move, but could be fired upon as normal.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Skarboy wrote:I like the Expendable USR idea and dividing the hits proportionately, but it might be "too much math" for the casual gamer when you get really complicated unit situations. I think friendly fire and suicide units have their roles in this universe. Like orks would think twice about firing at a unit tied up by grots...

I think you're probably right about the "too much math" thing, especially when you start to consider things like assaults by multiple units and potentially dealing with close combats involving more then two player's forces.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think the resolution of blasts and templates is a problem. The way the mechanics for close combat are set up, there's not much you can do to avoid moving every model in your squad into base contact with each other. This makes them easy bait for templates. It is also inconsistent with what close combat is supposed to represent: a swirling melee where it is impossible to pick out your enemies without hitting your allies. The "big blob meets big blob" is an abstraction of this concept.

I think that because of this, hits from blasts and flamers would need to have some sort of division between the squads, much like regular shooting. A simple 4+ hits the enemy, 3- hits friends would probably be the quickest way of resolving this, and would stop single models from then being able to direct all of the shots at the enemy while still being able to - perplexedly - hold the entire enemy unit in place.

The "Expendable" rule sounds like a neat one. I would add Sisters Repentia, Arco-Flagellants, and Penitent Engines for Which Hunters, and Grotesques for Dark Eldar.

You're right about templates. I don't think blasts would be much of a problem considering that scattering would make them highly dangerous to you're unit as well.

For simplicities sake it might be easier just to have a single dice roll to determine whether hits are applied against your unit or the enemies unit, for normal firing as well as blasts and templates. Maybe 1-4 hits your unit, 5-6 it hits the enemy unit? Maybe modified by the number of times one side outnumbers the other? Like a 2-6 hitting the enemy if they outnumber you 4 to 1?

Thanks for supplying info for Witch Hunters and Dark Eldar, I haven't had much experience with either so wasn't as sure as to what units would or wouldn't fit.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Another, simpler way of handling things would be to allow units (either with an "expendable" special rule or just any in the game) to break and be swept up automatically, if their owner wants them to. The enemy would then be granted a consolidation move, but could be fired upon as normal.

It probably would work easier but I'm not sure it would make as much sense, from a fluff perspective. A unit isn't going to roll over and die, even if you really want them to. Grots and conscripts might be cowards but they're lives still mean something to them, even if they don't mean anything to their General/Warboss. It would make sense for Penal Legion troops since they're supposed to have explosives around their necks that can be detonated remotely.

Every Dark Eldar or Chaos Unit should be "Expendeble" except for the most expensive HQ unit. THey are not known for loving their units.

IMO everything the tyranids have should be expendable. Since they just jump into the digestion pool and get reabsorbed anyway.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:It probably would work easier but I'm not sure it would make as much sense, from a fluff perspective. A unit isn't going to roll over and die, even if you really want them to. Grots and conscripts might be cowards but they're lives still mean something to them, even if they don't mean anything to their General/Warboss. It would make sense for Penal Legion troops since they're supposed to have explosives around their necks that can be detonated remotely.

There is precedent for it though; a 30 man squad of anything (except Space Marines, of course) will get destroyed instantly if they fail to break off from combat. Plus it is possible to remove a squad of conscripts from the field (Send In The Next Wave), and grots disappeared after failing a morale check in the old ork codex (leaving the runtherd to try and round them up). I think it sort of aligns with the concept of models no longer capable of influencing the game being removed as casualties, whether this means dead, otherwise incapacitated, captured, having fled off the table, and so forth. Fluffwise you could consider it the squad being fired at breaking beyond all repair upon being shot at in the back by their allies, being ordered to retreat but lacking in the "combat tactics" required to maintain themselves as a coherent fighting force, or simply being killed by the ordinance being lobbed into the melee. I'll admit it is a little strange though, to have a bunch of models just leave the table like that.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I would add Sisters Repentia, Arco-Flagellants, and Penitent Engines for Which Hunters, and Grotesques for Dark Eldar.

No prob with DE but I can't imagine anyone but an utterly ruthless =][= Lord shooting Repentia just to get at the baddies a little-bit faster.
Shamed beyond forgiveness maybe, but the Sisterhood would never stoop as low as shooting them in the back. They're viewed as blessed martyrs utterly certain of their convictions by their sisters.

And I'm not sure about Arcos and P-Engines either, the amount of damage one is meant to inflict on the enemy kinda outweighs the potential shooting them in the back.

A Marine would never risk the life of his battle-brothers like that, the Sisterhood and Ecclesiarchy are kinda in the same boat.
If they had rules post 2nd edition the Frateris Militia would fit this bill though. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Frateris_Militia