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SO... I've noticed a disturbing trend. A couple of the codices that have just come out and are coming out contain APOC units... Trygons, valks, the new BA lander...

I'm personally not happy about this. I love new units and all, but the drive towards making the game more like apoc scares me for what will happen to the tournament scene in general...

How do you guys feel?

I do not think it is as bad as you suggest. I mean, the Stormraven Gunship, besides not having a model yet, has not existed before the new BA codex. Sure, it'll probably be large, but I don't imagine it'll be any bigger than the Valkyrie.

I do like that the smaller games can now represent more battles that would happen in the Warhammer 40k universe. Some Imperial Guard regiments are trained in airborne combat and deployment, and would not be as efficient in just Chimeras. The Hivemind might see it suitable to spawn even larger creatures, so as to take on more difficult prey.

To me, Apocalypse is defined by its large armies, not its large models.

40k is opening things up at both levels, the recent missions book gives options for small scale games.

For a long time 40k focussed on producing codices and standard games, and figured we'd set about producing variant games for ourselves. This didn't work, largely because the biggest advantage of 40k is that it provides a common language, you can walk into anf FLGS and get a game going - but that's not the case if you want bring in home rules. Now there's a common language for big games, and for small games, and for some wacky scenario based games.

frgsinwntr wrote:SO... I've noticed a disturbing trend. A couple of the codices that have just come out and are coming out contain APOC units... Trygons, valks, the new BA lander...

I'm personally not happy about this. I love new units and all, but the drive towards making the game more like apoc scares me for what will happen to the tournament scene in general...

How do you guys feel?

You forgot the Deathstrike! Now there's an Apocalypse model if there ever was one. I'm not overly concerned about this trend. While increasingly powerful models and units do have the risk to lead to the re-emergence of Herohammer, considering how relatively easy even these big bads are to kill I rarely see the super huge stuff in tournaments (like the raider-priced characters), as you simply need those basic troops and redundancy of purpose (rule of three) to do well. I see them more in larger games, and why not, they're fun. And at the end of the day, it adds variety to regular games of 40K without having to step into the zaniness of Apocalypse.

Van Grothe wrote:I do not think it is as bad as you suggest. I mean, the Stormraven Gunship, besides not having a model yet, has not existed before the new BA codex. Sure, it'll probably be large, but I don't imagine it'll be any bigger than the Valkyrie.

To me, Apocalypse is defined by its large armies, not its large models.

I doubt they will make a model for the Stormraven, at least not until the regular marines are redone and it becomes available to them as well. And it will probably be somewhat bigger than the Valkyrie, though not by much (the dread is carried outside, after all).

As for definition of Apocalypse, I don't think they are meant for large games. Large games can be easily played with regular 40K. I always thought Apocalypse was more for playing without any FOC or faction restrictions, so you could have narrative campaigns and missions. IMO, people assuming Apocalypse is just for playing enormous games where you can bring 5 baneblades to wtfpwn all your enemies is the biggest problem with those games. They are meant to be fun diversions and ways to tell a story, rather than bring the cutthroat approach to what is essentially a game with no rules (and thus open to outrageous min/maxing).

I think there is a general trend towards apoc (which makes sense to GW - they want people to have bigger armies as this means they'll spend more money) but as usual its being done in a haphazard fashion.

Apocalypse is in itself unnecessary and could easily be incorporated into the standard 40k rules (other than flyers and super-heavies there's no 'rules' in apoc - and the flyer rules could do with improving anyway)

What they should do is get rid of the distinction between the games and replace it with a sliding scale of what is allowed at various points values but otherwise let people build what they want.

For example:

0-1500pts: No flyers, No superheavies, No Special Characters above 200pts. No formation rules. 1 FOC
1500-3000pts: No superheavies, No Special Characters above 250pts. Limited formation rules. 1 or 2 FOC's (obviously if you use 2 you must take compulsaries from both)
3000pts+: anything goes. Unlimited formation rules.

New formation rules would replace the current battle formations but would allow people to design there own. It would provide more tactical flexibility, better reflect peoples model collections (who the feth would ever be able to use a Reaver Titan Maniple unless they were lottery winners?) and would scale better.

No Valks in 1500 points? You go to hell! You go to hell and you die!

terminus wrote:No Valks in 1500 points? You go to hell! You go to hell and you die!

I'm fairly certain that flyers actually have their own special rules, and that Valks are skimmers.

Sir Wat wrote:

terminus wrote:No Valks in 1500 points? You go to hell! You go to hell and you die!

I'm fairly certain that flyers actually have their own special rules, and that Valks are skimmers.

Yup.... flyers come on, do stuff, and fly back off into reserve the following turn, unless they can hover or land.

And no, Valks aren't flyers. The Tau Manta... now THAT'S a flyer.

I think the ba unit the "stormraven" is a smaller version of a stormbird, the BIG daddy of theTH, so it will be bigger than a valk.

BTW, rumor (and common sense) has put the StormRaven's model realese at the same time as Codex:Inquisition. Read the BA codex, you will learn why.

INQUSTION!
Well its not like as if its bad to have APOCLAYPSE. Its just that more people like small games, there are more small games than there are Apoclypse games.
I myself love 3,000 point games. Espically with team-mates.

Van Grothe wrote:

To me, Apocalypse is defined by its large armies, not its large models.

This.