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Shrike joins a squad of 10 guys. It infiltrates....can the squad then split into 2 units, or does it have to stay one because of Shrike? Combat squads says you split them when you deploy them...

General Hobbs wrote:Shrike joins a squad of 10 guys. It infiltrates....can the squad then split into 2 units, or does it have to stay one because of Shrike? Combat squads says you split them when you deploy them...

Shrike cannot do this.

In order to join the a unit pre game he must deploy within coherency with them. As a unit without the Infiltrate USR (obviously) do not have the Infiltrate USR, the only way this can be done is if he joins them before infiltrators are deployed, at which point they are already deployed and cannot then Infiltrate. He can, of course, opt to join them in reserve, where he confers the ability for the unit to arrive via Outflank, at which point they can choose to split into combat squads when they are deployed from reserve.

Imagine I am playing someone who plays RAI, like how the INAT and 99% of other allow....than can they split?

General Hobbs wrote:Imagine I am playing someone who plays RAI, like how the INAT and 99% of other allow....than can they split?

The RaI is exactly what I have posted. If the Authors had intended otherwise, why would they have written the codex at all?

In any case, whether they split or not is completely up to you and your group, as you are already ignoring rules in the first place.

Only one of the combat squads could infiltrate with Shrike, as they split when you deploy them, and Shrike would only be able to give his rule to one squad.

MSP is right on- just like a Scout squad infiltrating- you can't split them after infiltrating them.

Can you give me the page that says you can't split a scout squad when infiltrating?

If only 1 squad can infiltrate, then what happens to the other squad? You are in the infiltration part of the deployment phase, you can't just set them up.

A Scout squad can split and both combat squads infiltrate (I'm assuming Scouts have Combat Squads). But, let's assume your squad of 10 guys is a Tac squad. They must be combat squadded when deployed, and Shrike can only join one of those Combat squads, giving only that combat squad the ability to Infiltrate with him (Let's assume this is the intent of Shrike's special rule, shall we, in spite of the author's and rules' poor wording, etc). But this also pretty much would mean that they cannot be combat squadded to do this, since deploying one combat squad and setting the other aside to be Infiltrated breaks the Combat Squad rules.

Gwar! wrote:The RaI is exactly what I have posted. If the Authors had intended otherwise, why would they have written the codex at all?

That makes no sense, Gwar.

What they wrote is not necessarily what they actually intended. Mistakes happen, particularly when you lack a competent editor.



For the actual question, if we assume the obvious, that Shrike can join a squad and allow them to infiltrate, I would agree with don_mondo that they would be unable to Combat Squad, as there is no option given to deploy the two combat squads at different times.

insaniak wrote:What they wrote is not necessarily what they actually intended. Mistakes happen, particularly when you lack a competent editor.

That is what Errata is for. I notice no mention of this in the Errata, thus the intent is what the RaW says.

Gwar! wrote:That is what Errata is for. I notice no mention of this in the Errata, thus the intent is what the RaW says.

Or it simply means that they haven't added it to the errata yet. Or that they haven't actually realised that it's a problem yet.

What the rules say has no bearing on what was originally intended. Errata likewise has no bearing on what was originally intended, as they change their minds from time to time, depending on who's working on what.

If you wanted to combat squad then Shrike can only give his ability to one combat squad, as they become 2 seperate units. Like in Dawn of War, you can't put out 2 Tactical squads (2 choices), then combat squad, as this would make 4 units. Whereas the rules only let you have 2. =D

Plus although I wish Gwar was incorrect. As the RAW doesn't fit my perception of that rule. Nowhere does it state the obviously sensible way for that rule to work. So sadly you can't infiltrate your devastator squad so that it can get to weak points etc.

Oshova

don_mondo wrote:A Scout squad can split and both combat squads infiltrate (I'm assuming Scouts have Combat Squads). But, let's assume your squad of 10 guys is a Tac squad. They must be combat squadded when deployed, and Shrike can only join one of those Combat squads, giving only that combat squad the ability to Infiltrate with him (Let's assume this is the intent of Shrike's special rule, shall we, in spite of the author's and rules' poor wording, etc). But this also pretty much would mean that they cannot be combat squadded to do this, since deploying one combat squad and setting the other aside to be Infiltrated breaks the Combat Squad rules.

I'm playing devil's advocate with this question btw. I personally can see both sides of the arguements...

We're assuming that Shrike is joined to the squad and the squad is being held to be placed on the board during the Infiltration part of the deployment phase.

Is being placed on the board deployment?

You have a squad. It can combat squad during deployment. You have a character that can let the unit infiltrate. You hold the unit for infiltration. When you place them on the table, it is when you announce you are combat squadding the unit. But, Shrike can only be joined to one unit....so if the other squad no longer can infiltrate, what do you do with it?

Oshova wrote:If you wanted to combat squad then Shrike can only give his ability to one combat squad, as they become 2 seperate units.

Except that, as has been pointed out, the fact that they then deploy at different times means that you can't actually Combat Squad them, as the decision to split them is made on deployment. You have to deploy them both at the same time for that to work.

So the only way that Shrike can deploy with a Combat Squad is if the unit he is joined to already has the infiltrate rule.

Plus although I wish Gwar was incorrect. As the RAW doesn't fit my perception of that rule. Nowhere does it state the obviously sensible way for that rule to work. So sadly you can't infiltrate your devastator squad so that it can get to weak points etc.

The whole Shrike issue with being unable to actually join units has been discussed to death on several occasions. All it boils down to is that the RAW doesn't technically allow it, but the vast majority of players go with allowing him to join a squad and infiltrate with them.

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:That is what Errata is for. I notice no mention of this in the Errata, thus the intent is what the RaW says.

Or it simply means that they haven't added it to the errata yet. Or that they haven't actually realised that it's a problem yet.

What the rules say has no bearing on what was originally intended. Errata likewise has no bearing on what was originally intended, as they change their minds from time to time, depending on who's working on what.

When I worked at GW, we were never allowed to send frequently asked questions to the studio. Or if we did, we never got answers. They really just don't care, and only in really extreme cases do they make an FAQ or errata change.

General Hobbs wrote: But, Shrike can only be joined to one unit....so if the other squad no longer can infiltrate, what do you do with it?

That's the point. There is no legal way to deploy that squad. So, since the Combat Squads have to be deployed together, and there is no way to do so, you would be forced to leave the squad intact.

Oshova wrote:If you wanted to combat squad then Shrike can only give his ability to one combat squad, as they become 2 seperate units. Like in Dawn of War, you can't put out 2 Tactical squads (2 choices), then combat squad, as this would make 4 units. Whereas the rules only let you have 2. =D

Plus although I wish Gwar was incorrect. As the RAW doesn't fit my perception of that rule. Nowhere does it state the obviously sensible way for that rule to work. So sadly you can't infiltrate your devastator squad so that it can get to weak points etc.

Oshova

The Adepticon FAQ allows you to infiltrate with Shrike, and every tournament organizer I have asked has said yes he can. So it is a matter of venue....If I were to play a friendly game and my opponent said no, I'd point out that playing 40K is entirely a game of permission, and at that point, I no longer give him permission to play me.

I've never met this situation in a game before, as no-one I know uses Shrike like this. And I do wish the rules would let you play him like he should be used . . . cos otherwise why else would he be allowed to give them infiltrate? . . . ooh they can outflank at some point in the game . . . it's not really giving the full ability of the USR . . . If it crops up at the club then maybe there will be a house rule . . . But it's another situation where you would need both players consent to play with RAI instead of RAW.

Oshova

Oshova wrote: But it's another situation where you would need both players consent to play with RAI instead of RAW.

Technically, yes. But outside of internet forum goers, I would be fairly willing to bet that it is rarely discussed at all, and that most players let him join a unit without even noticing that the rules don't technically allow it.

Fair enough. =D

You win this round logic! . . . and yet I don't feel as if I lost, as I get what I wanted. And anyway, since when did GW rules make logical sense. =p

Oshova

So then, according to RAW. How does shrikes See but remain unseen rule work? It seems to say that he gives infiltrate to the men in his squad. can someone clarify for me?

Yep, but the problem has to do with when and how he can join them, etc etc.

then shrikes ability is mainly a means to give a squad he joins outflanking, not necessarily to infiltrate?

Natfka wrote:then shrikes ability is mainly a means to give a squad he joins outflanking, not necessarily to infiltrate?

By RAW, yes.

It's up to you to decide whether he was supposed to be able to infiltrate with a unit, or whether 'infiltrate' was supposed to be 'outflank'...

Most people go with the former.

Possibly because that would be more sensible, as only allowing someone to use half a rule is silly. But then this is GW, and as such sensible doesn't necessarily come into the equation =p

Oshova

Natfka wrote:How does shrikes See but remain unseen rule work? It seems to say that he gives infiltrate to the men in his squad.

In the previous Codex he had the option of taking a named squad of jump troopers as a retinue. Someone copy-pasted the "granting infiltrate" for the new Codex without considering that it worked differently for a unit he bought, joined automatically and couldn't leave. Right now it only lets him provide a unit Outflank from reserves.

Personally I'd have no problem letting him Infiltrate with an Assault squad, possibly Scouts/Tacticals too. But infiltrating fleet Terminators? Nah...