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If I ram a vehicle with the defrolla attached, do I still get the initial hit for ramming, or do the d6 S10 attacks outright replace the ramming hit?

Both vehicles take the ram damage, and you get the Deff Rolla hits.

Zain60 wrote:Both vehicles take the ram damage, and you get the Deff Rolla hits.

Or do you get the Deffrolla hits and then resolve the ram afterwards?

Gah, I hate it when GW do things half arsed (that is to say, everything )

yep. I mentioned that in the 3 chimera tank shock thread that there's no clear distinction on which happens first...

RAIWPI:

I would say ram damage first, but I have no rules basis for that. Just that if the ram didn't happen first there could potentially
be no vehicle left to get rammed after it got deff rolla'd and I have a hard time believing that would be the 'intent'

Zain~

I believe, from RAW, that the DeffRolla hits happen before the actual ramming damage occurs.

Reasoning:
When a DeffRolla takes effect in a tank shock, the d6 hits are applied before the unit moves but after they pass their Ld test and choose to do Death or Glory.
If they choose to Death or Glory, they take more hits than usual- all still before the Tank Shock ends.

So if a Dreadnought chooses DorG, it will takes the additional hits. The hits resolve and it is quite possible that the Dreadnought can be destroyed/disabled before it can resolve it's own DorG attack.

Thus in a Ram, the ramming damage is not applied until after the DeffRolla activates and resolves... The DeffRolla hits do resolve after it has been determined that a skimmer has not avoid the ram though, so skimmers can completely avoid the DeffRolla.

Now, I can't be 100% on this because I do need to re-read the BRB's specific wording for Death or Glory and Tank Shocking...
But since a ram functions similarly to a Tank Shock (though resolves very differently in the end), it can be taken that the DeffRolla functions in the same procedure.

We'll really have to wait until GW realizes that it needs to clarify a lot of rules more specifically.

Deffrolla first ram second.

Wow, wasn't even thinking about which order they would resolve in.

The answer about the order is actually very straight forward....

The ram and rolla hits are resolved simultaneously.

The ram IS the tank shock that activates the rolla. No ram = No rolla hits on the vehicle. You cannot have one w/o the other with the way it is worded; therefore, they must occur at the exact same time.

If a skimmer dodges, there is no ram, therefore no tank shock, so no rolla hits.

If a walker DoGs and stops the ram, the Rolla's special DoG rule kicks in and the walker still takes 2d6 hits.

Alerian wrote:

If a walker DoGs and stops the ram, the Rolla's special DoG rule kicks in and the walker still takes 2d6 hits.

So how do they happen simultaneously if you don't know until after the DoG whether or not there even is a Ram hit...........??

don_mondo wrote:
So how do they happen simultaneously if you don't know until after the DoG whether or not there even is a Ram hit...........??

It goes like this;

1. Declare Ram, move, etc.
2. Walker decides whether to DoG or not.
3a. If yes, resolve DoG, then resolve 2d6 Rolla hits and 1 Ram hit simultaneously, UNLESS the BW is stopped, in which case resolve 2d6 Rolla hits.
3b. If no, resolve 1d6 Rolla hits and 1 Ram hit simultaneously.
4. If the walker Exploded and you have distance left in your Ram move, continue forward.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

It goes like this;

1. Declare Ram, move, etc.
2. Walker decides whether to DoG or not.
3a. If yes, resolve DoG, then resolve 2d6 Rolla hits and 1 Ram hit simultaneously, UNLESS the BW is stopped, in which case resolve 2d6 Rolla hits.
3b. If no, resolve 1d6 Rolla hits and 1 Ram hit simultaneously.
4. If the walker Exploded and you have distance left in your Ram move, continue forward.

Completely agree!

Exactly.

DonMondo, your question is really about the timing of DoG, which is described in the BGB, and not about the timing of Rolla/Ram hits, which happen simultaneously. The only diffrerence is that unit that performs a DoG will still take 2d6 rolla hits, regardless of the outcome of a ram/tank shock, thanks to the Rolla's DoG special rule.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

don_mondo wrote:
So how do they happen simultaneously if you don't know until after the DoG whether or not there even is a Ram hit...........??

It goes like this;

1. Declare Ram, move, etc.
2. Walker decides whether to DoG or not.
3a. If yes, resolve DoG, then resolve 2d6 Rolla hits and 1 Ram hit simultaneously, UNLESS the BW is stopped, in which case resolve 2d6 Rolla hits.
3b. If no, resolve 1d6 Rolla hits and 1 Ram hit simultaneously.
4. If the walker Exploded and you have distance left in your Ram move, continue forward.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me, I don't know why I didn't think of 'simultaneously.' There is plenty of precedent for simultaneous action in 5th edition. Good call!

Just a thought, but d6 str 10 hits could travel through a whole vehicle squadron as well correct? Almost makes me feel bad for IG that don't pop the BW before it gets to the vehicle squadrons.

Brother Ramses wrote:Just a thought, but d6 str 10 hits could travel through a whole vehicle squadron as well correct? Almost makes me feel bad for IG that don't pop the BW before it gets to the vehicle squadrons.

Correct.

If I pop a transport with the deffrolla after ramming, is there anything stopping me from having the BW's passengers disembark and assault the destroyed transport's contents?

Nothing at all, as you can never move Flat Out! which is what prevents passengers disembarking.

Well, if youve been silly enough to put an Ard Case ont he BW, that would prevent you...

Zain60 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Just a thought, but d6 str 10 hits could travel through a whole vehicle squadron as well correct? Almost makes me feel bad for IG that don't pop the BW before it gets to the vehicle squadrons.

Correct.

Just a follow up question on this matter...

Lets assume that I ram 3 Russes (in a squadron) with my deff rolla and I hit the left one in the side. Do all Russes get smashed in the side armour? (If I roll 3 or more, that is).

Zain60 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Just a thought, but d6 str 10 hits could travel through a whole vehicle squadron as well correct? Almost makes me feel bad for IG that don't pop the BW before it gets to the vehicle squadrons.

Correct.

a94marbo wrote:

Zain60 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Just a thought, but d6 str 10 hits could travel through a whole vehicle squadron as well correct? Almost makes me feel bad for IG that don't pop the BW before it gets to the vehicle squadrons.

Correct.

Just a follow up question on this matter...

Lets assume that I ram 3 Russes (in a squadron) with my deff rolla and I hit the left one in the side. Do all Russes get smashed in the side armour? (If I roll 3 or more, that is).

The problem is, the only rules for spreading out hits amongst the squadron are the ones for the shooting and assault phase...Deff Rolla hits occur in the movement phase so are rather unclear (damn, I didn't notice this before we updated the INAT FAQ).

Although the Deff Rolla hits clearly affect the 'unit', however a Battlewagon could theoretically end up ramming each member of the squadron separately if it keeps destroying them.


So I guess the natural questions would be:

1) Does the Deff Rolla cause D6 hits each time it rams a vehicle in the squadron or just once?
2) And are these Deff Rolla hits spread out amongst the vehicles in the squadron as this damage is not occurring in the shooting or assault phase?



While I don't think there is a definitely clear RAW answer I think these are the *best* answers given what information we have:

1) The Deff Rolla only affects the squadron once, when the first vehicle in the squadron is rammed (as the Deff Rolla rules says it occurs when the 'unit' is tank shocked, which is the vehicle squadron in this case).

2) However, as these hits are described as affecting the unit they should affect all the vehicles in the squadron...and since there *are* rules for spreading the hits out for the shooting phase, these seem like the best ones to use and would also mean that the AV rolled against would be the one contacted by the ramming vehicle, and this would apply for all the Deff Rolla hits for the whole squadron (if you're following the shooting rules and assuming that the 'closest vehicle' rule for AV applies to the vehicle being rammed).



So if a squadron was rammed by a Battlewagon w/ a Deff Rolla, this is how I'd play it:


A) The initial squadron vehicle is touched by the ramming Battlewagon.
B) the D6 Deff Rolla hits are rolled.
C) All the hits are then rolled against the AV of the vehicle being rammed (where the Battlewagon is touching it), with the initial ramming hit being rolled as a different color dice (as it can only affect the initial vehicle).
D) Any glancing or penetrating hits are then allocated amongst the vehicles as usual for shooting, with any damage caused by the initial ram having to be put onto the vehicle being rammed.
E) If the initial rammed vehicle explodes, then the ram continues and if another member of the squadron is contacted, then this vehicle is rammed as well, however as the unit (squadron) is still in the process of being 'tank shocked' by the Battlewagon, then no further Deff Rolla hits are inflicted on the squadron.

Just a follow up question on this matter...

Lets assume that I ram 3 Russes (in a squadron) with my deff rolla and I hit the left one in the side. Do all Russes get smashed in the side armour? (If I roll 3 or more, that is).

The vehicle rules for squadrons dictate you roll for the penetration before the 'wounds' are allocated to each model in the unit. So technically 'no' they don't get smashed in the side armor,
it's just overlap from the one that got hit. The way it plays though, is that 'yes' effectively the penetration rolls are all made on the armor of the model actually rammed.

Edit: Gah! Yakface beat me to it.

I agree that the ram and the deffrolla happen at the same time, but I would say that an explosion caused by the deffrolla would not be enough for the ram to continue. The hit from the ram would have to cause an explosion (by the rules for ramming page 69 last paragraph) or else the ramming vehicle stops, even if the deffrolla explodes it at the same time.

denny1824 wrote:I agree that the ram and the deffrolla happen at the same time, but I would say that an explosion caused by the deffrolla would not be enough for the ram to continue. The hit from the ram would have to cause an explosion (by the rules for ramming page 69 last paragraph) or else the ramming vehicle stops, even if the deffrolla explodes it at the same time.

Why? The ram hasn't stopped. The vehicle was exploded; ergo the battlewagon may continue.

The rules on page 69 are specifically addressing the ram hit and only allow for the ram to continue if the ram causes an explosion. One rule says the ramming vehicle stops, another rule giving a specific exeption. I dont think the deffrolla counts as fitting that exception.

In a fluff way you could say if the hit from the ram wasnt strong enough to blow up the vehicle, the wheels of the rammer come to a halt even if the big spikey roller ends up ripping it to shreds.

denny1824 wrote:The rules on page 69 are specifically addressing the ram hit and only allow for the ram to continue if the ram causes an explosion. One rule says the ramming vehicle stops, another rule giving a specific exeption. I dont think the deffrolla counts as fitting that exception.

In a fluff way you could say if the hit from the ram wasnt strong enough to blow up the vehicle, the wheels of the rammer come to a halt even if the big spikey roller ends up ripping it to shreds.

No, in fact those rules are NOT specifically addressing any one hit.

I quote; ". . . if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a destroyed - explodes! result, the rammer continues to move. . ."

So; the vehicle was rammed. It suffered a Destroyed - Explodes! result. The ramming vehicle thus continues to move, regardless of whether it was the rolla or the ram itself which causes that result.