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EDIT---SEE LATER POST FOR UPDATED LISTS BASED ON INPUT.

Hi I would like to take a crack at a guard list with no tanks. I haven't played guard since 3rd edtion so would like some opinions on how to make a competitive non tank guard army.

HQ-----
CCS-1 - 240
Creed
Vox
Lascanon
Plasma
master of fleet
master of ordinance

Elite
------
Marbro- 65

Ogryns x5 - 210

Troops
---------
Platoon-1- 630

PCS
Chenkov
meltaX4

Squad x 3
sgt-powerweapon
vox
Plasma (in only 2 squads)
lascannon

heavy weapons squad
lascannons x 3

Conscripts x 30

Platoon-2 - 390

PCS
Commander with Powerfist
meltax4

Squad x 2
sgt-powerweapon
vox
Plasma
lascannon

heavy weapons squad
lascannons x 3

Veteran squad -190

harker
vox
melta x3
demolition doctrine

Fast attack

Rough Riders -125
melta x2

total = 1850


135 models with 30(conscripts) that can respawn if needed.

Harker and rough riders go tank hunting while ogryns stay back to guard the guard. Or I can keep rough riders back to help ogryns guard the guard

I really would like to make this competitive without tanks, so let me know if it's possible and what you might change.

GG

First of all, right on. Don't see many on Dakka.

Just wanted to get that in there while you're online, now I'll look at it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it looks pretty solid. You quoted the number, and that's a big strength in itself. I'll point out that that's 112 scoring squishies in 8 - 11 units! You will of course decide whether to blob or not to blob depending on the tactical situation (ie. terrain, opponent, mission). You'll pretty much have your objectives locked down

(more to come...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At 1850 your 13 lascannons in 5-8 squads (one BS4) should get 'er done. The melta is good backup, those squads are well-equipped and small enough to use screening and the terrain to get on target. I like the PF and RR squads for this, and that may be enough. Is Chenkov going to get right in there too? Melta units have a habit of being destroyed pretty fast. Harker's squad is a little steep for a suicide squad as well, but I see how you're sneaking two sneaky pieplates in there... but he probably doesn't need the vox if he's trying to be sneaky, as he'll probably be trying to put distance between himself and that loudmouth Creed. He could be set up for ranged instead and add another BS4 LC, or even go with HB 3xSR for a little 36" dakka. Not critical, just a suggestion, you've got him set up for high damage potential as it is.

It's possible CC won't really be a huge problem with this many squads supporting each other. Keep your units close but not real close and whatever charges you will die a quick death. (In theory).

At this point level, I'm liking the OotF and the MoO out there in a gunline, just for the general havoc factor in the enemy's plans... messing with their reserves and hitting with the third pieplate, as well as wounds for Creed, will be satisfying for 60 pts.

Creed is looking good here. I can't help but think you could use Kell with him, then you could drop the vox network altogether.

I've never used the Ogryn's, have you? I'm not sure you need them to guard the guard with this many guard guarded by Creed (phew). It is nice to have the redundancy of Ogryns/RR's as counterassault units, and I'm sure your opponent will have to at least pay attention to them.

All in all, looks good. Marching on objectives is your biggest problem imo. The conscripts and PCS's and maybe an infantry platoon can take one if you really have too.

I'm not even sure it's necessary, but possible fat to trim for more boots on the ground (or at least a third PG in 1IP), imo: vox network, PF, Demolitions, Harker, Creed, Ogryns. I'm not saying cut, just carefully consider. IG must beware the lure of upgrades.

I think it's a good list, good luck with it.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yikes, sorry that was so long...

I would agree with the above post and say you don't need both ogryns and rough riders . . . if I had to pick one I'd take the riders, but I honestly think the most dangerous assault unit in the IG army is a big blob squad, sergeants with PWs, 1 commissar w/PW.

Marbo and Harker both seem good in this list. I think the platoons are a little confused. First, you've got all lascannons - I think that's expensive and inefficient. Second, your blob squads are kitted out to the max, with PWs (useful for a creed-ordered charge) and lascannons/plasma (which prevent you from charging if fired).

How about giving one blob PWs, and an assault special weapon? maybe a cheap autocannon as well, but 35 points on the current guns is overkill. If you want that combination, put them on a squad and keep it well away from assaults.

Second, fit some autocannons in there. Better against AV10-11, very near as good as lascannons against AV12 (and much cheaper) - AV13-14 you might as well send meltaguns after, lascannons will take a lot of luck to do anything.

I am not a fan of chenkov, I think commissars provide better security, but they do also cost more. Your choice really.

I will say that conscripts are terrible. 120 points for 30 men - 2 guard squads with PW sergeants can do the same speed bump role, and might actually accomplish something! In the current rules, the points difference is too small to make conscripts worth it over regular guard.

Summary: for the static parts of a guard infantry army, I think blob platoons are the way to go, equipped as described above. I think marbo, harker are both good offensive solutions, riders and ogryns not so much. If you do any of the cuts suggested above, I would suggest more infantry, more infantry, more infantry, and possibly some outflanking sentinels, if you don't consider those to go against your theme.

Good luck with the army!

Don't play IG myself, but just want to say I salute you, sir! There is nothing more boring than a Guard player who just parks his tanks as far away as possible and starts lobbing you. I love Leman Russes as much as the next guy, but sheeesh! You, on the other hand, play like you have a pair.

A colossus or whirlwind would ruin your whole day.

You need more HWSs. Autocannon and lascannon.

You need more HWSs. Autocannon and lascannon

you serious he's got like 12 LasC.

generalgrog: you are a star , I was starting to lose faith, all the list I've seen out there recently are Mech/Melta/Vets or Aircav/Melta/Vets. I have to agree with the others about the conscripts and chenkov.

I did see a post a while ago about an all infantry list and the guy said you have to keep things cheap because you will lose a lot of men every turn.

Let me know how it works for you though.

The emperor protects

SpankHammer III wrote:

You need more HWSs. Autocannon and lascannon

you serious he's got like 12 LasC.


The emperor protects

I see only 9.

4.5 hits, 2.25 go through cover save and 0.375 penetration on AV14...at 1850? Oh no, that is not enough at all. With creed's orders it would be better but still not sufficient.

Add more HWS teams under 1 platoon and the situation would be transparently better.

Walking T3, sv 5+ guys cannot go tank hunting, they would be hunted by tanks, and many other units. Unless they move fast, or you take many such units.

tokugawa wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:

You need more HWSs. Autocannon and lascannon

you serious he's got like 12 LasC.


The emperor protects

I see only 9.

4.5 hits, 2.25 go through cover save and 0.375 penetration on AV14...at 1850? Oh no, that is not enough at all. With creed's orders it would be better but still not sufficient.

Add more HWS teams under 1 platoon and the situation would be transparently better.

Walking T3, sv 5+ guys cannot go tank hunting, they would be hunted by tanks, and many other units. Unless they move fast, or you take many such units.

There are 12 Lascannons.
5 Plasma
13 melta
And a few pie plates from demo charges and MoO scattered in.

Thanks for all the input, at least it seems that this concept may be competitive based on some of the comments.

I really really want to keep an ogryn squad in the army, for theme purposes. However I am totally willing to drop the ogryn down from 5 to 3. That frees up 80 points too.
Also, I really want conscripts too, because it fits my theme, however I'm not totally attached to them like I am my ogryns and Rough riders.

Got to run...I'll be back with more comments.

GG

One comment above says it all for me. Keep it cheap. Just go for lots and lots of spam. Ogryns are good for countering, as are rough riders. I don't really see
the point in an ubercool melta unit with a special upgrade character.

I don't totally agree with the assessment above that you will be ruined by a whirlwind, but it will make you pay. Spread out, take cheap squads, have an overwhelming,
not sufficient, but overwhelming amount of long range fire. That means HWT's and squad heavies all over the place.

At 1850 I think you could pull off 1.5-2 full platoons.

Zain60 wrote:One comment above says it all for me. Keep it cheap. Just go for lots and lots of spam. Ogryns are good for countering, as are rough riders. I don't really see
the point in an ubercool melta unit with a special upgrade character.

I don't totally agree with the assessment above that you will be ruined by a whirlwind, but it will make you pay. Spread out, take cheap squads, have an overwhelming,
not sufficient, but overwhelming amount of long range fire. That means HWT's and squad heavies all over the place.

At 1850 I think you could pull off 1.5-2 full platoons.

I see...so you would recomend dumping harker and the vet squad in exchange for more platoonage? I can see that. That's 190 points for more lascannons and bodies.

GG

Your Ogryns being in or out won't make or break the list, so your call. I think harker brings a little flexibility to your list. Chenkov/conscripts I've never used, I've always just brought regulars. He doesn't need the meltas though, 9 is enought imo.

The problem with conscripts and Send in the next wave is you need to spend more to start with to get it cheaper. With 30 conscripts, send in the next wave and Chenkov (if the only reason your taking him is send in the next wave) the conscripts work out just over 4 point each. With 50 they are just over 3 points each, to be honest though I think I would still prefer to take platoons, BS2 and WS2 with no upgrades sucks and all they do is die and tarpit enemies in assault, but a platoon can do the same thing and they can have upgrades. Saying that I have never used conscripts and if they are essential to your fluff then go with it, it is a game after all and personally i'm all about the fluff, but I do't know how competive they will be. The best way to see if a list is any good is to play it.

Love the concept keep up the good work and keep us posted on how it turns out.

generalgrog wrote:

Zain60 wrote:One comment above says it all for me. Keep it cheap. Just go for lots and lots of spam. Ogryns are good for countering, as are rough riders. I don't really see
the point in an ubercool melta unit with a special upgrade character.

I don't totally agree with the assessment above that you will be ruined by a whirlwind, but it will make you pay. Spread out, take cheap squads, have an overwhelming,
not sufficient, but overwhelming amount of long range fire. That means HWT's and squad heavies all over the place.

At 1850 I think you could pull off 1.5-2 full platoons.

I see...so you would recomend dumping harker and the vet squad in exchange for more platoonage? I can see that. That's 190 points for more lascannons and bodies.

GG

I think you could stand to get rid of either/or the ogryns / rough riders, and perhaps the harker squad in its current form yes. Not because those are bad units, but because
I think the points could be spent on more spam. In lists in the extreme (all shooty, all assault, all mech, or all groundpounder) I think your strength is in your one-sided
ambition to overwhelm a balanced or opposite extreme type of list. You'll still have issues against all ground/shooty lists because they'll meet you on your terms and invalidate your
lascannons to a major degree. Against a balanced list relying on a good mix of mech/assault with ground fire support, you'll easily overwhelm their vehicles with highly
focused fire and then their fire support will be too 'balanced' to really put a huge dent in your army. The major strength of spam ground shooty is that you won't face
that many of them. Most lists just can't kill as many troops as you can bring in a 2 hour match if they're playing a balanced list. They have to out-shoot you or actually
make it into assault. Your worst nightmare is a footslogging anti-horde list imho, even though that list would probably die horribly against a mech army whereas yours wouldn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last thing,.. were it me, I'd drop ogryns before Rough Riders. Rough riders provide you with mobility outside of vehicles that you don't want to bring. That can come in
more than handy in objective missions or against units attempting to assault you as shock troops or counterassault relieving the combat.

I really like ogryn and an effective way i have played them is with 5 in a Chimera with yarrick that's a lot of dakka a lot of choppa and yarrick makes em re roll hits on the charge so that's 21 weapons skill 4 initiative 4 re rolling to hit attacks on the charge the yarrick makes em fearless.

Ogryn are basically the little sisters of terminators. but look at it this way. better toughness 2 more wounds one more attack furious charging up to 6 strength and the same initiative on the charge and they have better guns. but yes they aren't as good but they get close.

This is my own foot list.

HQ

Company Command squad- Creed, Kell, grenade launcher,Chimera,Medi-Pack-315

Troops

Infantry platoon

Platoon command squad- x3 grenade launchers-45

x2 infantry squad- x2lascannon- 140

x2 infantry squad- x2lascannon- 140

Total-325

Infantry platoon

Platoon command squad- x3 grenade launchers-45

x2 infantry squad- x2lascannon- 140

x2 infantry squad- x2lascannon- 140

Total-325

Heavy support

Leman Russ Demolisher-lascannon- 180

Leman Russ Demolisher-lascannon- 180

Leman Russ Battle Tank-lascannon- 165

Total-1490



I very much like the look of your list and you are a legend for no tanks and this list i think would do very well and would be just brilliant to play against. i mean no frelling melta vets is becoming a novelty these days.
but what im trying to say is MAINLY FOOT GUARD ARE THE TRUE GUARD!

p.s and yeah im sort of a douche for posting my own list

Allright a few things. I wasn't taking the 75 point upgrade for my conscripts to use Chenkovs ability. I also looked and saw that chenkov can't use the shooty orders. So I dropped chenkov and split up my conscripts into 2-20 man units.

Also dropped the veteran squad and 2 ogryn, which gave me a lot of points to add more heavy weapons.

I have 10 points to play with, but wasn't sure what to throw in there for 10 points yet.


HQ-----
CCS-1 - 240
Creed
Vox
Lascanon
Plasma
master of fleet
master of ordinance

Elite
------
Marbro- 65

Ogryns x3 - 130

Troops
---------
Platoon x2( they are identical now) 640

PCS
Lascannon
Plasma x2
Vox

Squad x 3
sgt-powerweapon
vox
lascannon

heavy weapons squad
lascannons x 3

heavy weapons squad
autocannons x3

Conscripts x 20

Fast Attack
Rough Riders -125
melta x2

total = 1840

So I now have:
143 models
15 lascannons
6 autocannons
5 plasma
2 melta-on rough riders
1 pieplate


GG