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Ok, so I was going over the rules the other day, and I think I was wrong about the Lictor/Deathleaper.

I think he automatically enters play on turn 2.

His rule says he is placed on the board "when he becomes available". Now, according to the language in the main rule book, reserves 'become available' on turn 2 when you start rolling for them. When the die roll succeeds, they have 'arrived'.


so I'm wondering, am I incredibly clever to have seen this and my name should be praised just slightly less then Elvis,

or is this something that was so obvious to everybody else it has not been discussed and I'm just slow on the uptake,

Or am I trying to gain some advantage I shouldn't have and deserve to be flogged?

Sinjin wrote:Ok, so I was going over the rules the other day, and I think I was wrong about the Lictor/Deathleaper.

I think he automatically enters play on turn 2.

His rule says he is placed on the board "when he becomes available". Now, according to the language in the main rule book, reserves 'become available' on turn 2 when you start rolling for them. When the die roll succeeds, they have 'arrived'.


so I'm wondering, am I incredibly clever to have seen this and my name should be praised just slightly less then Elvis,

or is this something that was so obvious to everybody else it has not been discussed and I'm just slow on the uptake,

Or am I trying to gain some advantage I shouldn't have and deserve to be flogged?

No, he rolls for reserves.

I'm not saying your wrong, this is how I thought it was up until reading it carefully last night.

But please, read the Lictor rule carefully, and then read the reserves rule thoroughly paying attention to the language used.

But right or wrong, could you please back up what your saying with relevant rules?

Sinjin wrote:I'm not saying your wrong, this is how I thought it was up until reading it carefully last night.

But please, read the Lictor rule carefully, and then read the reserves rule thoroughly paying attention to the language used.

But right or wrong, could you please back up what your saying with relevant rules?

I think its an interesting point, however trying to fight for this ruling would be akin to beating your head against a wall.

I dont have the BRB on me, so I have no comment on the rule itself.

Sinjin wrote:I'm not saying your wrong, this is how I thought it was up until reading it carefully last night.

But please, read the Lictor rule carefully, and then read the reserves rule thoroughly paying attention to the language used.

But right or wrong, could you please back up what your saying with relevant rules?

Reserves only become available when they pass their reserves roll.

Gwar! is spot on. The language here is more spread out, but it's there. At the end of 'rolling for reserves' on p.94 BRB -

-'you must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay
making the dice rolls or keep the reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them'

That language means after the die is rolled bringing them out of reserve, they're available.

*unwinds his Cat-O-Nine-Tails*

Alright Sinjin. . .you know what time it is. . .

Zain60 wrote:Gwar! is spot on. The language here is more spread out, but it's there. At the end of 'rolling for reserves' on p.94 BRB -

-'you must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay
making the dice rolls or keep the reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them'

That language means after the die is rolled bringing them out of reserve, they're available.

Ok, but in other places in specifically says when they pass their reserves roll they 'arrive'.

I'm thinking the term 'available' is used because due to special funky missions, that might be turn 1, or turn 3. It's won't always be turn 2 that you start rolling for reserves.

Also, (not that this has ANY bearing on what the rule is) if they come in automatically on turn 2, then their +1 to reserves roll is not useless, and the lictors in general actually become worth their points.

It might actually make the lictors pheremone trail ability useful...

Volkov wrote:It might actually make the lictors pheremone trail ability useful...

I agree 100%. This is why I actually went back and looked at the rule. Which is where we really run into the problem. it is REALLY easy for us to see things that we WANT to see, rather then what is there.

I pride myself on looking at rules with an unbiased eye, but I just can't be sure I have done that here.

So while it seems I'm right looking at the rule, and it certainly makes sense given the way his other rules are written, I just don't know...

Except you are wrong. 110% Wrong.

Sinjin, to try to put this in a more tactful manner than Gwar! did, your statement that the text in the rulebook supports your premise is incorrect.

What you perhaps meant to say is 'If you read the first paragraph of the reserve rules in a certain way, it seems to imply that reserve become available on the second turn.' That would be reasonable to say, but the note two paragraphs later in the rules 'Note: you must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available.' flatly contradicts that notion.

You can't be faulted for trying to figure out ways to make a possibly difficult to use unit more useful, but you can be faulted for trying to hard and deliberately misconstruing how the rules are written.

Gwar! wrote:Except you are wrong. 110% Wrong.

I always love how thorough and insightful your posts are...

Sinjin wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Except you are wrong. 110% Wrong.

I always love how thorough and insightful your posts are...

I am glad you are a fan.

As has been said by myself and others, you are wrong. For a Unit in Reserves to be available it must have passed it's reserves roll. End of Discussion.

Gwar! wrote:As has been said by myself and others, you are wrong. For a Unit in Reserves to be available it must have passed it's reserves roll. End of Discussion.

At this point, I'm pretty much just arguing for the sake of being complete...

But the Lictor is already immune from having to follow the Reserve rules 100%, as he has already broken one of them, which is he MUST be placed in reserve. Normal reserve rules give you the option.

So to say he has to roll just because that is the way all reserves work is false.

Sinjin wrote:As has been said by myself and others, you are wrong. For a Unit in Reserves to be available it must have passed it's reserves roll. End of Discussion.

At this point, I'm pretty much just arguing for the sake of being complete...

But the Lictor is already immune from having to follow the Reserve rules 100%, as he has already broken one of them, which is he MUST be placed in reserve. Normal reserve rules give you the option.

So to say he has to roll just because that is the way all reserves work is false.

Template Weapons are immune to following the shooting rules 100% too, does that mean they always cause Instant Death and ignore Invulnerable Saves?

Gwar! wrote:Template Weapons are immune to following the shooting rules 100% too, does that mean they always cause Instant Death and ignore Invulnerable Saves?

Except there is no language to support this.

I'm at work now, and can't back-up what a few people have posted, and they are probably right... I'll look more throughly when I get home. But I'm basically going to automatically discount any post of "I'm right you're wrong" Especially when all throughout this I have been saying that while it looked like I might have something, I couldn't be sure.

Sinjin wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Template Weapons are immune to following the shooting rules 100% too, does that mean they always cause Instant Death and ignore Invulnerable Saves?

Except there is no language to support this.

The same way there is no Language to support what you are saying about the Deathleaper, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you.

Gwar! wrote:End of Discussion.

I disagree with this part of your statement, and my act of disagreement in itself proves you're incorrect.

and at this point, *unless anyone else has anything to add* it is now the end of the discussion.

Sinjin wrote: I'll look more throughly when I get home. But I'm basically going to automatically discount any post of "I'm right you're wrong"

'Cept this is the way Gwar! argues. Even if the rules he's arguing for are completely ridiculous, he'll defend them so staunchly that there isn't another logical answer. Not even if there is. There were a couple cases (note my sig), but they're few and far between where he doesn't just end up saying, "I'm right. You're wrong." It's a part of his ego, methinks.

puma713 wrote:'Cept this is the way Gwar! argues. Even if the rules he's arguing for are completely ridiculous, he'll defend them so staunchly that there isn't another logical answer. Not even if there is. There were a couple cases (note my sig), but they're few and far between where he doesn't just end up saying, "I'm right. You're wrong." It's a part of his ego, methinks.

Well, being a jerk until nobody wants to talk to you IS one way to win an argument.

Sinjin wrote:

puma713 wrote:'Cept this is the way Gwar! argues. Even if the rules he's arguing for are completely ridiculous, he'll defend them so staunchly that there isn't another logical answer. Not even if there is. There were a couple cases (note my sig), but they're few and far between where he doesn't just end up saying, "I'm right. You're wrong." It's a part of his ego, methinks.

Well, being a jerk until nobody wants to talk to you IS one way to win an argument.

Well, that's part of the problem. He throws his weight around so much (demanding that he's right) that other start to believe him. Many don't have the time/knowledge or even inclination to defend what they're asking or the topic they're interested in. So, when he says, "I'm right, you're wrong." many just clam up and don't keep posting. They check with their TO or their opponent and that's the way they play it.

But, for the people that don't just sit there and let him bully them around, he gets himself into heated debates. Then, his ego takes over and he thinks the debates are about him and not the rules in question. It's pretty funny, actually.

Here is why I feel the lictor has to be rolled for. And it will be presented in a non-offensive way

GW has stated multiple times that there are no easter eggs in codices. If something acts in an unusual way they will usually put a "note" or draw your attention in another way. Lictor they did not, so I am inclined to think 'tis not the case that he comes automatically

Look, two things are true.

#1: The Lictor/DL rolls for reserves.
#2: Gwar enjoys being as abrasive as he can.

#2 doesn't mean he's not right. This is an open and shut, as numerous folks have pointed out. If you don't want to have to admit Gwar is right, don't make preposterous claims that he'll gleefully refute.

Since the original premise has been shown to be wrong, and the thread is devolving into attacking a poster, this one's done.