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I need to make a few statements before this thread goes spinning out of control:

#1 - this isn't a complain about landraiders deepstriking thread
#2 - I want people who answer to have actually looked at the BA codex

Can the unit that comes in in the landraider assault out the turn it comes in? The rules clearly state that any unit arriving via deepstrike cannot assault the turn it lands, but I want to know if the codex makes some sort of clarification. (Same question applies to the stormraven).

I don't expect GW to have made this clear but I'm up in the air because its the transport that is deep striking, and not the unit inside, technically.

Thanks for the input!

I can't give a definitive answer, having not seen the BA codex yet, but I think it's worth pointing out that the Deep Strike rules cover both models that Deep Strike themselves and models that Deep Strike in a vehicle.

So the issue here isn't whether Deep Striking in a transport allows them to assault, because the rules already cover that.

The actual issue would simply be whether or not the codex addresses the interaction between the Assault Vehicle rule and the Deep Striking assault prohibition.

I'm pretty certain it is mentioned thatr you can't assault but I've only read the rules quickly. I can't imagine that you could. If it doesn't specifically allow you do the assault vehicle rule doesn't override the DS prohibition. Remember tha BA are getting this for free (unlike the fast vehicles which are more expensive), to me the DS rule is a gimic with no actual game play benefit I mean where on earth could you DS a Landraider without it misshaping?

I agree with both responses, which is why I'm confused and want to head off any arguments/confusion at my club. The whole assault vehicle thing is what will cause the most rule confusion but I'm not seeing anywhere in the rules that being an assault vehicle has anything to do with overriding the assaulting after deep striking restriction.

I plan on going to a store in my area and take a peek at the preview codex to see if there is an answer in there and i'll report back afterwards.

Thanks for the responses FlingitNow and insaniak

Kav122 wrote:I agree with both responses, which is why I'm confused and want to head off any arguments/confusion at my club. The whole assault vehicle thing is what will cause the most rule confusion but I'm not seeing anywhere in the rules that being an assault vehicle has anything to do with overriding the assaulting after deep striking restriction.

I plan on going to a store in my area and take a peek at the preview codex to see if there is an answer in there and i'll report back afterwards.

Thanks for the responses FlingitNow and insaniak

I'd agree. The flow of logic seems to go (if it is not addressed in the Codex, which I think it is):

LR deep strikes with Assault Termies + Sanguinary Priest.

Assault Vehicles states that the unit may assault after disembarking.

Deep Strike states that the unit that deep struck cannot assault, even if it was their transport that did the deep striking.

So, I am in an assault vehicle. Did I disembark from an assault vehicle? Yes, so I may assault.

But did I Deep Strike? Yes, so I cannot assault.

I seem to recall that the LR Deep Strike rule specifically precludes the embarked unit from assaulting on the turn they arrive. I can't give a page quote as I only read the rules briefly. I was specifically looking for that exclusion BTW.

Homer

Hrm...I read the rules even more briefly; one of the managers at the FLGS decided to take the pre-release codex home with him for the week and just brought it back about 10 minutes before close last night.

I agree with the more conservative reading, that the Deep Strike prohibition trumps the Assault Vehicle allowance. That said, I am curious to hear if the Codex says anything on the subject.

Anyone got a quote?

The codex either doesn't say you can or it says nothing of that I'm pretty sure (99%). Obviously I don't have the codex in front of me. If it specifically prohibits it then yo can't do and if it simply doesn't say anythign this is how the RAW works:

Restrictions on assaulting:

1) You can't assault after disembarking
2) You can't assault after Deep striking
3) You can't assault if you are out of your assault range

The assault vehicle rules states that restriction 1) does not apply. It therefore has no impact on restriction 2, just like an open topped DS vehicle like say a Drop pod.

If you are trying to say you can assault after disembarking = you can always assault after disembarking regardless of other restrictions you aer also saying fleet units can assault after disembarking from say a Wave Serpent if they ran in the shooting phase which is obviously wrong. You are also saying that My Terminators can still assault out of my LR even if out of assault range if you are claim that the assault vehicle rule removes all assault restrictions. Which means I can trundle my LR on from my board edge on say Turn 1 of DoW jump out and then assault something on near your table edge 50" away...

Edited for clarity and typos

As I recall, the codex specifically prohibits assault in both the landraider and stormraven rules.

I've only seen the codex briefly and remember 100% the Storm raven prohibits you from assaulting out of if it moves 24" or DSes can't remember the Landraider exactly though am pretty sure that it didn't specify that you could do this (and therefore you can't remembered the out come but not how we got there).

It makes perfect sense that a unit that deepstrikes can't assault even if that unit is contained inside another deepstriking unit. They are both counting as Deepstriking and thus can't assault that turn.

This query kinda reminds me of a Bugs Bunny sketch where he is pushed off a cliff in a telephone box. He finishes his call and steps out of the telephone box just before it hits the ground and crumbles into rubble with him unaffected by the speed at which it fell. Very amusing.

What about "codex overwrites rulebook"?

Anung Un Rama wrote:What about "codex overwrites rulebook"?

In order for that to apply, the codex need to present a specific exception to the general rules provided in the rulebook. Hence the original question asking for a specific quote.

What about "codex overwrites rulebook"?

That is not effected here. Nothing in the codex is saying anythig different to the rule book, it is not overriding a rule therefore that rule still applies.

Again as I stated if you are claiming assault Vehicle means you can ALWAYS assault after disembarking then you can disembark you hammernators on turn 1 and assault an enemy 50" away up 3 levels of a ruin as you are ignoring the deepstrking restriction you must therefore ignore all other restrictions like assault range...

Anung Un Rama wrote:What about "codex overwrites rulebook"?

That doesn't exist, at all.

What does exist is "Specific overrides General" - now *usually* the codex is more specific, however Sweeping Advance, BRB rule, is more specific than WBB, a codex rule. As an example

FlingitNow wrote:I've only seen the codex briefly and remember 100% the Storm raven prohibits you from assaulting out of if it moves 24" or DSes can't remember the Landraider exactly though am pretty sure that it didn't specify that you could do this (and therefore you can't remembered the out come but not how we got there).

A guy that runs the FLGS that I sometimes frequent for tournaments posted info about the Codex the day he got it. From his list, reading directly from the codex:

"you can get out, but not assault. or at least it says "if you disembarked from LR that has deepstrike, you may not assault""

His forums are here:

http://gigabitescafe.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=b3c9scp1bg0ki87om4pt5m4pk4&topic=2417.0

Cheers Puma that clears it up. I still stand by the codex not needing to say this to mean that assaulting from a DSiong LR is prohibited but this line draws eth final line under it.

I remember reading it an dknowing you can't do it i just couldn't remember whether I worked out you can't because it didn't say either way or knew that you can't because it expressly prohibited it... It seems the later is true case closed.

The Deep Strike rules are very clear, models arriving via deep strike may not assault, nor make ANY OTHER MOVE other than to disembark from a Deep Striking transport or to Run.

So I just got back from the LGS and it says in the BA codex very specifically (Twice under the landraider part) that they may not assault. It also says it under the Stormraven. I'm glad it very very specifically says so because the nit-pickers could easily had said its the landraider that is deep striking, not the unit inside.

This tread should be closed now.

<<<<MOVE ALONG: Kav122 addressed the issue>>>>


Here is something to think about: Look at the Lucius pattern Drop Pod for dreads. The rule allowing assault out of deep strike is ‘Assault Vehicle’.

As Gwar left out, the restriction for assaulting out of DS also says, "..., unless clearly stated in their special rules-...".

I believe the no assault rule for DS comes from the fact that the vehicle counts as moving cruising speed and we cannot assault out of a vehicle that has moved. The rules just re-state this fact for clarity.

I would guess, unless the C:BA says otherwise, they can assault out of a DS Landraider.

Whenever I think of DS Landraiders, I think of them dropping them out of orbit and saying good luck heres your parachute.

Here is something to think about: Look at the Lucius pattern Drop Pod for dreads. The rule allowing assault out of deep strike is ‘Assault Vehicle’.

As Gwar left out, the restriction for assaulting out of DS also says, "..., unless clearly stated in their special rules-...".

I believe the no assault rule for DS comes from the fact that the vehicle counts as moving cruising speed and we cannot assault out of a vehicle that has moved. The rules just re-state this fact for clarity.

I would guess, unless the C:BA says otherwise, they can assault out of a DS Landraider.

So being able to assault out of an LR removes all assault restrictions? So I can get out of my Land raider and then assault someone 50" away?

The restriction on assaulting from DSing has nothing to do with vehicle movement restrictrions as it applies to all DSing troops (unless they have a special rule overriding it) whether or not their arrived by vehcile DS teleoprtation or other means.

By your claim all assault marines could assault after DSing in as they do not come in from a vehicle. Likewise Terminators teleoprting in. Models arriving via Gate of Infinity too...

Also Scouts could DS out of a LSS as it is open topped and you can assault out of an OT vehicle and normal drop pods which also count as OT once deployed...

The assault vehicle special rule under LRs specifically overrides the normal restriction of assaulting out of a vehicle that has moved. It does not override any other assaulting restrictions. Should you say run you then still not be able to assault. Should you be out of your assault range you'd not be able to assault and if you deepstriked that turn you would not be able to assault!

Whenever I think of DS Landraiders, I think of them dropping them out of orbit and saying good luck heres your parachute.

Yeah everyone at my gaming group thought the same. Just kick the thing out the back of the orbital cruiser. But on the turn it arrives it counts as facing downwards...

FlingitNow wrote:

Whenever I think of DS Landraiders, I think of them dropping them out of orbit and saying good luck heres your parachute.

Yeah everyone at my gaming group thought the same. Just kick the thing out the back of the orbital cruiser. But on the turn it arrives it counts as facing downwards...

Measure how many inches from the ceiling of the FLGS you're playing in to the tabletop. Divide by 5" - that's the Strength of the hit to the LR front armor facing. The crater that is left where it landed is now difficult terrain.

Kav122 wrote:So I just got back from the LGS and it says in the BA codex very specifically (Twice under the landraider part) that they may not assault. It also says it under the Stormraven. I'm glad it very very specifically says so because the nit-pickers could easily had said its the landraider that is deep striking, not the unit inside.

This tread should be closed now.

I'll second this, I saw the Codex last week and specifically remember seeing this rule for Land Raiders. I actually noticed this before I noticed the Deep Strike rule for Land Raiders, causing a bit of a "huh?" moment until I saw it

my question is after they deepstrike..... Do these landraiders have ceramite armor or whatever its called for them to deepstrike?, so that meltas cant get double pen?

puma713 wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

Whenever I think of DS Landraiders, I think of them dropping them out of orbit and saying good luck heres your parachute.

Yeah everyone at my gaming group thought the same. Just kick the thing out the back of the orbital cruiser. But on the turn it arrives it counts as facing downwards...

Measure how many inches from the ceiling of the FLGS you're playing in to the tabletop. Divide by 5" - that's the Strength of the hit to the LR front armor facing. The crater that is left where it landed is now difficult terrain.

I'm fairly certain, for no reason at all, that the RAI is to take a photo of your Land Raider. Permission to just print the one from the GW website is given for owners of a Land Raider model. Tear it into shreds and drop it on the table from about shoulder height. Enemy units within 6" of a piece glance up, chuckle and continue as normal.

Seriously, they are not dropped from orbit, but from Thunderhawks flying by. Think the Mako from Mass Effect.

Homer

Even if you coudl, woudl you want to risk deep striking a LR in assault range of anything? That's alot of points to risk.

Seriously, they are not dropped from orbit, but from Thunderhawks flying by.

Yeah I know but that's nowhere near as funny as the thought of them chucking the things out of the orbiting space space as the pass the battle field.

my question is after they deepstrike..... Do these landraiders have ceramite armor or whatever its called for them to deepstrike?, so that meltas cant get double pen?

No but why wouldn't you always take it anyway?

@ FlingitNow : Did I say ‘Assault vehicle’ rule removes all restrictions? I don’t think I did. I said (using Dread Drop Pod as an example) that the restriction of assaulting out of a moving vehicle is removed and stated that “I believe the no assault rule for DS comes from the fact that the vehicle counts as moving cruising speed and we cannot assault out of a vehicle that has moved. The rules just re-state this fact for clarity.” Thanks for taking a statement as to my reasoning on how I see the rule working as a blanket statement on how a game mechanic works and inclusion of a precedent on how the rule may work. I will say that the ‘clearly’ part would have been a sticking point as the Lucius Pod clearly states in the ‘assault Vehicle’ rule that it does allow assaults, where the LR assault vehicle rule does not ‘clearly’ state that it may (but this can be left out because up to now, LR did not deepstrike).

All the examples given are not allowed because the rules say so. Either way, it is a moot point as Kav122 addressed the issue and it was confirmed by Cheexsta.