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I've been messing around with my army recently, mainly because my current build can be done better using the SW codex instead of the CSM. In that light, I'm starting to look at replacing my IoCG with Icon of Slaanesh but I wanted to toss out my theory-hammering first.

Basically, its only helpful against I4 or I5 but those are far and away the most common I values out there and in both situations, it can provide a strong bonus, either letting you attack before your opponent and therefore taking less wounds in return or attacking at the same time and not losing guys before they can even strike.

Its true its only useful in HtH combat but that is where a CSM belongs 75% of the time, so that isn't much of a drawback.

You do lose out on the LD reroll but I'm starting to feel like that might be overkill when you have a LD10 most of the time anyway.

Anyway, thoughts?

Ld10 being 'enough' is IMO a joke.
Stubborn, fearless, or re-rolls is the way to go with LD, else it will bite you in the ass when you least expect it.

IoS doesn't add much besides striking before I4 and at the same time as I5...doesn't even help with sweeping advance (unmodified I right?)...sad really.

If it's theme, IoS works.
If you want cheaper 'Noise Marines' and special weapons and forgo the sonic weapons, then IoS is the way to go.

But it's as you indicate: "meh".

IoS is only useful some of the time (when fighting I4 or I5 guys). All of the other icons are useful all of the time.

If you want to be in combat IoK is just better. Against things that are really scary in combat (bloodcrushers, stealers, terminators) either your I is still too low anyway or they are so though to kill that it wont make a difference.

As sanctjud pointed out Ld10 isnt good enough. There are enough things that force morale/pinning tests out there that you will fail some eventually, and it may even end up costing you games.

So there isnt any point taking it at all.

Ever since I started playing in 2nd ed the Mark of Slaanesh has been the worst. I'm never figured out why they don't do something to buff it.

The wort part is that Noise Marines are Kitted as Fire support but then gain I5, they want to use assault as a light mop-up but that point is fairly moot as they are already firing effectively storm bolters at their opponent

Sancjud: I believe because it is always in effect MoS does add to the sweeping advance; Furious charge does not because it is situational ends immediately after the I5 step(the I bonus that is)

MoS is a tactical mark; the others are dummy-proof; if you take the MoSyou are setting yourself up to play in certain styles(mobile fire/Late assault) and this is best done taking 25 point per model Noise marines(all with Sonic Blasters)

I'm torn.

Much of my feelings are exactly what has been listed, its a situational mark (only helpful in assault) that isn't always helpful (only I4/5).

But for those situations, doesn't it seem to have a fair amount of utility? On paper it seems that the ability to strike before the most common opponent (MEQs) would be a great advantage since you will kill them before they can strike back, thus saving you return wounds.

Of course this is probably just a case of me looking for some hidden gem in a codex that has already been picked clean.

From the perspective of a tyranid player: Most assaulting units in my tyranid army strike at I4 or I5 (hormagaunts, termagants, warriors, HT, raveners gargoyles, trygon, mawlock etc). I need to assault, and I like to go first, so MoS is annoying. It means that I have to commit greater forces to feel confident that I'll win. However, similar result can be had by deploying in cover (no assault grenades here), but since my army seriously lacks AP1-3 weapons the MoS gives you the opportunity to deploy wherever you like.

I think the mark makes a significant difference, but I agree that it's not overwhelming.

Remember that the Icon of Slaanesh doesn't just provide an Initiative bonus; if that's all you want then Noise Marines will provide I5 at a better price alone with Fearless.

But if you're considering the Icon of Slaanesh in particular, then you need to consider what I5 will do for each particular unit and at what cost.

As mentioned I5 means hitting before I4 and at parity with I5 in combat, while +1A means always getting an extra attack in combat, while +1T means always getting a T bonus which is useful against S2-6, and Iv5+ means always getting a saving throw, which is useful against every wound. The Icon of Chaos Glory is even more restricted, taking effect only when the unit fails a Morale check (as opposed to general Leadership tests like Pinning...).

So the Icon of Slaanesh pretty restricted by comparison to most of the others, but notice that the price goes up as the utility becomes more general. At 20pts (15pts for Terminators) the Icon of Slaanesh is the second least expensive, the second most restrictive. That's 2/3 of most Icons of Khorne (or 1/2 in the case of Terminators), 2/4 for Tzeentch, and 2/5 for Nurgle (despite being of more restricted utility in absolute terms, frequency of weapons in that S band in the actual game make its cost commensurate with game effect).

Put another way, each step up the scale is a Meltagun, and an Icon of Slaanesh would cost one Noise Marine or upgrade four Chaos Space Marines to Noise Marines. But notice that the cost of the Icon of Nurgle outweighs the cost of an Icon of Tzeentch despite the ostensibly wider utility. Think in terms of game utility.

Noise Marines are a unit with powerful and mobile shooting, but also have muscle to back up that shooting so that they're not easily defeated in combat. Being able to hit at or before most units makes their shooting more threatening, perhaps better so that just having extra attacks because they won't need the extra attacks to make up for casualties when they attack second. Being relatively good at close combat in this way means a unit of Chaos Space Marines or Chosen or Havocs can really benefit with taking Flamers and going after elite close combat units: no (big) worries if they assault after dropping 2-5 templates because you'll catch them at I5.

Basically if you can play to the strengths of having I5, the strength of the Chaos Space Marines of getting in for a close ranged firefight or assault, then an Icon of Slaanesh has its value.

If you're having a problem with the lack of Morale boost in the units, take Fabius Bile and give your Chaos Space Marine units (Chosen, Chaos Space Marines, Bikers, and Havocs) +1S and Fearless.

take Fabius Bile and give your Chaos Space Marine units (Chosen, Chaos Space Marines, Bikers, and Havocs) +1S and Fearless.

That's how you play it ??? Must be a friendly bunch there that's not anal about it being only CSM (troop choice).

Else, I like that point of view Nurglitch, a real eye opener. Though, for CSM IoN and IoT are pretty comical icons to consider on them and ... at least I don't take them seriously in a discussion with respect to CSM (troop choice).

Fearless is a double edged sword these days, it doesn't come up often, but it's there, though it's still better for the shooty squad.

Sanctjud:

The referent is ambiguous between the entire Codex, the entry in the Forces of Chaos section (p.26-27), and the entry in the Chaos Space Marines Army List section (p.96). Attributing it to the units described in the Forces of Chaos section is a good compromise, but as you say I'm fortunate to play with reasonable people.

The Icons of Nurgle and Tzeentch both have their uses as well. The Icon of Nurgle goes well with units that already have Iv5+, and the Icon of Tzeentch goes well with units that already have T4(5).

I5 lightning claw termies are really nasty when fighting marines, but LD10 does suck.

@Nurglitch:
I agree on all points, but on the IoN/IoT, I made a specific mention 'with respect to CSM troop choices' that IoN and IoT are jokes.

Otherwise, yes, there is a time and place for each...just not involved in my lists .

@Schadenfreude:

I5 lightning claw termies are really nasty when fighting marines

Depends... Tacs are screwed either way, but if the termies need to charge something that is in terrain...sucks to pay for I5 and can't use it then and there.

I can't fully understand the complaining about LD10. Sure its not Fearless and sure you could be hit by a few meta-choices like PBS in Chimera and really suffer but for 90% of the situations its good enough. You shouldn't be losing combat by large amounts so its not likely to be testing on 5-6 unless you're up against a deathstar unit and even then a Fearless unit would be taking quite a few extra wounds.

Extra wounds > dying outright to the sweep I guess.
I play a fully fearless army or a ld 9 non fearless or stubborn.

Everytime I play the non-fearless army, I always wish I had fearless. 11's and 12's show up so often 9 or 10 doesn't matter, but that's just me.

I guess it's just some people find fallback and being swept are such a slap in the face, they'd rather avoid it at all costs...and overweight that small possibility as they are risk averse.

Sanctjud wrote:Extra wounds > dying outright to the sweep I guess.
I guess it's just some people find fallback and being swept are such a slap in the face, they'd rather avoid it at all costs...and overweight that small possibility as they are risk averse.

Makes sense to me. I suppose it is easier to simply be immune to the vast majority of LD check instead of having to worry about it.

I find it annoying that to get Fearless, you gotta play Cult Marines (discounting the tiny % of players who use Bile). Time after time I feel that playing CSMs now means not playing to Chaos' strengths.

Actually, Fearless makes them immunit to Morale Checks and Pinning.
Fearless units still take other Leadership Tests.

All Morale tests are Leadership Tests.
All Leadership Tests are NOT All Morale tests.
Morale is but a subset of Leadership Tests.

Thats why I said the vast majority.

Oh man, clear as day and I still read it wrong.
I blame work getting in the way or Dakka...er...yea.

Nurglitch wrote:Basically if you can play to the strengths of having I5, the strength of the Chaos Space Marines of getting in for a close ranged firefight or assault, then an Icon of Slaanesh has its value.

Great post Nurglitch. However it runs into another issue I've been having with Slaanesh/EC armies and thats the lack of anti-tank.

For the most part, any I bonus is wasted on armor with the expection of Walkers and since the majority of Noise Marines/Slaaneshi troops are already geared up for killing infantry, it feels like IoS is totally wasted for an anti-tank unit. This is compounded because anti-tank units will often take a Power Fist which wastes any potential advantage of having I5.

This is moving outside the scope of the original question but how does one incorporate sufficient anti-tank into their Slaaneshi lists?

Going with MoS is mostly a waste unless you really want special weapons for your troops CSM. MoCG is usually your best bet.

Either way with 10 LD or Fearless wounds it comes down to your dice rolls on that first round of combat.

Your Troops do not have to be anti tank their is enough from the other slots to compensate for your lack of anti tank with Noise Marines.

Remember you do not have to get Sonic weapons on your Noise Marines so Noise Marines with Doom siren going into HtH is pretty golden.

Also if you want some more Emperor Children help I have a lengthy tactica on them.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?s=noise

I4(5) is largely wasted against I3 or lower (Orks, Ass Terms) and of limited use against I5 or higher. You've really got to be fighting other I4 for it to matter.

Against a 10 man Tactical Squad, I5 lets you swing first, and you kill roughly 2.5 models on the charge. So 7 Tacticals swing back, killing less than one guy. Without I5, 10 Tacticals swing back, still killing a little less than 1 guy. IoS and I5 against Tacticals is worth about .3 guys. If you'd had the Mark of Khorne instead, you would've killed more than 3 guys, and a greater number of attacks will help you against I3 or lower and I6+ as well.

So against Tacticals, it's really no big deal. Let's try against Grey Hunters that pass their Counterattack Ld test since the difference should be a little greater. With I5, you still kill 2.5, 7 swing back, you lose almost 2 guys. If it'd been all ten swinging, it'd be 2.5 guys. So against GH IoS is worth slightly less than 1 guy.

And MoK in the same situation would give you a little more than 3 guys dead at the cost of 2.5.

So both IoS and IoK will help you win fights, but they're marginal at best. If you include a power fist into the squad, IoK will pull ahead a bit because you're losing I5 with IoS but still gaining 1A with IoK.

How much use will you get out of IoS? Against Tac Marines, very little. You'll beat them in combat anyways. [Virtually] none against Orks, IG, or Necrons. TH/SS Terms none. More versus Space Wolves and Marine characters with I5.

In general, though, IoK will be useful against more targets in more scenarios. You'll lose slightly more bodies in combats at I4, especially versus things like Grey Hunters, but the synergy with power fists and wider application puts it ahead in general situations.

sourclams wrote: IoS and I5 against Tacticals is worth about .3 guys. So against GH IoS is worth slightly less than 1 guy.

And MoK in the same situation would give you a little more than 3 guys dead at the cost of 2.5.

Is anyone else frustrated by that? It feels like it should be making a much larger difference but in the end, a fraction of a MEQ more is not enough to justify the increase in points.

No disagreement there. Certainly icons shouldn't be ridiculously powerful, but in general their effect doesn't justify extra cost, save for IoCG which is the cheapest and can have the most meaningful effect.

minigun762:

I'm surprised that you're worried about anti-tank in a Slaaneshi-oriented list. Most units with access to the Icon of Slaanesh can have Melta Guns.

Likewise I'm not frustrated by the numbers sourclams gives for suggesting that the Icon of Slaanesh isn't worth its expected value. Remember that a Personal Icon is worth 5pts, so the cost of the I bonus should be calculated at [Icon Points]-5, making the Icon cost as much as a Chaos Space Marine on a Chaos Space Marine Squad, less than 1/3 of a Terminator or Biker, and so on.

If you have ten Chaos Space Marine with an Icon of Slaanesh (170) fighting a squad of ten Tactical Space Marines (170), then you could reasonably expect to see (not/charging) 20/30 attacks at I5. 10/15 hit, 5/7.5 wounds, 1.65/2.48 failed saves. Call it 2, on average.

When the Tactical Marines attack you'd see 9/17 attacks, 4.5/8.5 hit, 2.25/4.25 wounds, 0.74/1.40 failed saves. As opposed to 11/21 attacks, 5.5/10.5 hit, 2.75/5.25 wounds, 0.91/1.73. So increase in the effectiveness of the Tactical Marines, on average, if they're fighting Chaos Space Marines without I4(5).

But that's on average. If you get lucky...

Nurglitch wrote:minigun762:

I'm surprised that you're worried about anti-tank in a Slaaneshi-oriented list. Most units with access to the Icon of Slaanesh can have Melta Guns.

Its the idea that its very rare for IoS or I5 to have any impact on anti-armor duties.
Sure you can give it to units like Terminators or CSMs with Meltaguns but it adds nothing to that role. Put another way, its not that its bad, it just adds nothing to a unit that is supposed to be on tank killing duty.

minigun762:

None of the Icons increased the effectiveness of anti-tank guns. If you want to argue that some of them confer some indirect improvement of effectiveness, then the Icon of Slaanesh performs as I described it above.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The wort part is that Noise Marines are Kitted as Fire support but then gain I5, they want to use assault as a light mop-up but that point is fairly moot as they are already firing effectively storm bolters at their opponent

Sancjud: I believe because it is always in effect MoS does add to the sweeping advance; Furious charge does not because it is situational ends immediately after the I5 step(the I bonus that is)

MoS is a tactical mark; the others are dummy-proof; if you take the MoSyou are setting yourself up to play in certain styles(mobile fire/Late assault) and this is best done taking 25 point per model Noise marines(all with Sonic Blasters)

I just wanted to point out that this is wrong.

Sweeping advance specifies that it always uses the initiative value without modifiers, written on the model's profile.

Noise Marines have I5 written on their profile, not I4(5)

Nurglitch wrote:Noise Marines have I5 written on their profile, not I4(5)

I realize that, he was referencing receiving the mark of slaanesh from an icon, you know, the discussion in this thread.

I'm pretty sure that if you look closely you'll see he was talking about Noise Marines.