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Must he accompany a unit of giant rats or rat ogres, or am I right in interpreting his rules to say that he may accompany them, and if he does so then he counts as a packmaster for Ld, etc? In other words, I want him in my clanrats not my rat ogres - legit?

- Salvage

Tough call- the only thing implying that he might have to be put in a unit of Giant Rats or Rat Ogres would be the first line:

"Throt counts as a Packmaster for the purpose of leading Giant Rats and Rat Ogres."

And under the Packmaster's entry (NOT Throt's) it says:

"Packmasters and Master Moulders lead units of Giants Rats or Rat Ogres. They cannot leave their unit or join another."

I dont see it saying he HAS to accompany a unit of giant rats or rat ogres- it also says that any of those units within 12" can use his leadership, and from the description, sounds like he might lead a number of these units into battle (and not be tied to one unit).

This would also lead me to believe that if he DOES join a unit of Giant Rats or Rat Ogres, he could leave the unit- since it only says he "counts as" a packmaster "for the purpose of leading" one of those units (not that he actually IS a packmaster... if that makes sense).

So I agree with the "may" not "must" interpretation. Sounds legit?

If it says he counts as a packmaster, then he follows the rules for the packmaster thing.

I'd say he HAS to lead a unit, because if he counts as one, then he has to follow the rule, if they wanted him to be different, GW wouldn't have wrote "counts as a packmaster"

Get my meaning?

To my knowledge, he is akin to a Skaven Grimgor with the Rat Ogres / Giant Rats being the bodyguard. He may join a unit, but the only units which he may join are either the Rat Ogres or Giant Rats. You could, if you so desired, run Throt naked. Why you'd do that I can't quite fathom, but you could.

I am of the opinion that that statement is qualified by when he's in a rat / ogre pack or not. Here's a clause reordering: "For the purpose of leading giant rats and rat ogres, Throt counts as a packmaster." Nothing has changed except that the qualifying clause comes before the clause suggesting his ability to count as a packmaster. If this rule were NOT there, then the unit would suffer stupidity or mandatory movement as both of those unit rules require a 'packmaster' or 'master moulder'.

What the rule doesn't say is that Throt is a packmaster flat out. He only operates like one in those units that care.

- Salvage

Ah, I see, yeah, he doesn't have to.

I agree... you can't drop the second half of the sentence. It's not just "counts as a packmaster".

It's: "Throt counts as a Packmaster for the purpose of leading Giant Rats and Rat Ogres."

As Salvage says, if this rule were not there, then that unit would act as if it had no leader even if he were in there.

I think it's much more consistent with the rest of the book to allow Throt to join any unit. You can put a plague priest in a unit other than plague monks, even though it doesn't make sense. You can have him leave that unit. You can do the same with everything except the large warmachines (screaming bell and plague furnace). I think Throt's the same... he has the benefit of counting as a packmaster should he choose to join a unit of Rat Ogres / Giant Rats but is an independent character and so can leave and join the unit as he sees fit- not like the packmaster / master moulders that can be purchased as upgrades for that unit.

I'd like to see someone list examples of other special characters that are forced to lead only a certain type of unit... I bet the wording is much more explicit. From what I can see, there is not requirements like that for any of the characters of the different clans in the skaven books (assassins, engineers, plague priests, etc...) they can all join the different skaven units, even though they're best suited to a certain one.

It also wouldn't make sense. Throt is expensive, and should act as a character, being able to leave and join units. If you extend the wording to make him an actual packmaster (rather than counting as one) then he can't leave his unit!? That wouldn't be consistent with any of the other characters of the skaven book, or fantasy in general, I think.

Again I'd like to see examples from other army books of characters that must lead certain unit types. I think it will be much more exlpicit, such as it is for the screaming bell: "The Screaming Bell must be deployed in a unit of Clanrats or Storm Vermin."

He doesnt have to - he only "counts as" a Packmaster for a specific purpose: leading and controlling the rats. That is the ONLY way he counts, and therfore can join another unit.

Why you wuold use Throt i dont know....

Because he's the only character who, as a packmaster, can go in the back of a unit of giant rats/rat ogres. Every other character (including Master Moulders) must stand in the front rank and take their lumps, entirely against character. But them's the rules...

Can Throt actually stand at the back? The FAQ declared that my master moulder has to ride the front as a champion, do characters have the option to not? I've actually been unclear on this in the new book, whether my characters can deploy in the rear any more like the old book. The rule letting them still help is there, but I wasn't sure it was legal to start out in rear ranks, not just get challenged-refused back ...

I keep going back and forth on Throt, and the thing for me is that he causes fear. His abilities are ok, and a warlord is much more survivable with the same Ld, but causing fear solves at least one unit's problems with fear / terror. Kicking my rat ogres into core also means I've got a special slot open for some PCB

- Salvage

I got the impression from reading the book (disclaimer: not a skaven player) that characters had to be deployed in the front of a unit, but could refuse a challenge and go to the back, but still use their LD, etc.

I didn't see anything about deploying in the back of a unit in the new book...

I have a sneaking suspicion it's technically allowed in the BRB (though the character essentially vanishes in terms of items, abilities, Ld, etc), but I keep forgetting to dig up that long forgotten section

- Salvage

No, characters must be deployed - you can only be deployed in the 2nd rank if there isnt enough room to deploy at the front.

Verminous valour just lets them retire to the back ranks if they refuse a challenge, and the dont suffer the ill effects of retiring, so the unit can still use their Ld, they can cast, etc.

Hunh. I though that counting as a packmaster, he could deploy as a packmaster too.

But then, thinking about it, master moulders are packmasters too... okay, my mistake!

At risk of being OT, I would like to raise a question in regards to Master Moulders. The FAQ claims that they are unit champions and thus go in the front rank. However, they are also packmasters, and thus can be deployed in the rear ranks. Is there some rule that says the main book supersedes specific army books? If Master Moulders are champions more than packmasters, then you don't randomize to hit them with shooting, right? But if they are more packmaster than champion, they get to sit in the back but might get shot by accident.

I agree with this thing on Throt, though. He'd technically go in the front, according to RAW.

If they are champions then thehy MUST go on the front ranks.

the AB says they "can", the rulebook says they "must" - the rulebook is more specific and wins out.

True enough. So then, as the count as champions in "all respects", they can't be randomly hit and aren't killed until attacks are directed at them. Actually, it's a pretty fair exchange.

Warpsolution wrote:True enough. So then, as the count as champions in "all respects", they can't be randomly hit and aren't killed until attacks are directed at them. Actually, it's a pretty fair exchange.

You actually do randomize to shoot them - partially because they're still packmasters for mixed unit purposes, and partially because they're champs who likely don't have 5 RNF models accompanying them. Overall a pretty dense call IMO, means that the electro-whip can literally never be used as a whip, only a +D3 magical ahw That on top of making the unit ugly rank-wise.

- Salvage

Warpsolution wrote:True enough. So then, as the count as champions in "all respects", they can't be randomly hit and aren't killed until attacks are directed at them. Actually, it's a pretty fair exchange.

They CAN be hit, if there are less than 5 RnF