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So, In the process of answering rules questions, I noticed a little something from the Dæmonhunters codex.

A Dæmonhost has an Attacks Characteristic of "D6", as opposed to a fixed number. One of the Dæmonhosts random abilities is called Timeshift, one affect if which states that it "doubles the number of attacks it can make (before modifiers)."

Now, as we know, characteristics are limited to a Maxium of 10, with the exceptions being Armour Value and bonus attacks, which as stated on page 37 "are an exception to the rules for characteristics' maximum modifiers and may bring a model's total attacks above 10!".

Now, say you roll a 6 for the Dæmonhosts Attacks and then roll Timeshift. RaW, I would say that it cannot become 12 attacks, because the doubling effect are not bonus attacks, meaning that it is capped at 10, then modified for Assaulting (for example) for a total of 11.

What do ya'll think?

I concur...it is capped out at 10 and then you add on any applicable modifiers (such as the assault bonus).

The doubling of attacks doesn't count as "bonus attacks"?

Otherwise he gets 13 possibly.

I would play it as it boosts it up to 12 attacks if it hits 6 on D6 and hits timewarp. First the chances of playing a Demonhunter, him taking daemonhost, rolling a 6 for hits then rolling a 5 for time warp is enough planets aligning to give him 2 more attacks lol.


Strict RaW, 10 attacks cap, +1 for the charge.

yakface wrote:
I concur...it is capped out at 10 and then you add on any applicable modifiers (such as the assault bonus).

Awesome. I shall stick this, along with another request about Dæmonhosts into the INAT FAQ thread.

Is this one of those questions where we point to "codex trumps rulebook"?

Or we get the wine about how DH/WH need an update

ductvader wrote:The doubling of attacks doesn't count as "bonus attacks"?

I just said that...

Alright...was just making sure.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Is this one of those questions where we point to "codex trumps rulebook"?

Or we get the wine about how DH/WH need an update

Codex does NOT trump Rulebook, except in the Summary Pages where it says it does.
Specific trumps General. If it was just Codex > Rulebook, Sweeping Advance would not work.

In this case, there is no specific rule allowing the Dæmonhost to ignore the general rule on characteristic limits, so it cannot.

Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree. Here's the old FAQ on a similar issue:

Q.Models armed with the Bloodfeeder (Khorne DW) can
exceed 10 Attacks. Is this allowed?
A. Yes, as they are bonus attacks that apply only in that
turnʼs close combat and do not permanently modify the
modelʼs Attack characteristic.

Note the bit about not "permanently" modifying the characteristic. Timeshift is not a permanent modification either. so............

Mondo FTW!

FAQ's are not rules?
This FAQ ignores the RaW?
It's the completely wrong army's FAQ?
It's an OLD FAQ?

Yes, it's old, it's not rules, etc etc (yawn, heard it all before). But it establishes how they, GW, (at one time) handled items that took a model over allowed stats. If you don't want to take it into consideration, then don't. Ain't gonna bother me one way or the other.

don_mondo wrote:Yes, it's old, it's not rules, etc etc (yawn, heard it all before). But it establishes how they, GW, (at one time) handled items that took a model over allowed stats. If you don't want to take it into consideration, then don't. Ain't gonna bother me one way or the other.

GW also at once time said Terminators rolled 2D6 for their saves. Shall we start doing that too?

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree. Here's the old FAQ on a similar issue:

Q.Models armed with the Bloodfeeder (Khorne DW) can
exceed 10 Attacks. Is this allowed?
A. Yes, as they are bonus attacks that apply only in that
turnʼs close combat and do not permanently modify the
modelʼs Attack characteristic.

Note the bit about not "permanently" modifying the characteristic. Timeshift is not a permanent modification either. so............

The question isn't whether or not the number of attacks a model can make can exceed 10, the rulebook says as much. The question is whether or not the attacks being granted are 'bonus' attacks or just an alteration of the model's Attack characteristic.

Do you happen to have the wording for 'Bloodfeeder' handy to post from the codex? I'd be interested to see how that rule is worded.

The wording for Bloodfeeder is awkward since it references the Daemon Weapon wording, so here's both references, leaving out the parts not applicable:

Daemon Weapon:
* Adds an extra D6 attacks in close combat.

Bloodfeeder:
"A model with Bloodfeeder gains 2D6 attacks rather than D6."

Gwar! wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Yes, it's old, it's not rules, etc etc (yawn, heard it all before). But it establishes how they, GW, (at one time) handled items that took a model over allowed stats. If you don't want to take it into consideration, then don't. Ain't gonna bother me one way or the other.

GW also at once time said Terminators rolled 2D6 for their saves. Shall we start doing that too?

Oooooo, but I like the "Can I use the Skaven FAQ" one better.

solkan wrote:The wording for Bloodfeeder is awkward since it references the Daemon Weapon wording, so here's both references, leaving out the parts not applicable:

Daemon Weapon:
* Adds an extra D6 attacks in close combat.

Bloodfeeder:
"A model with Bloodfeeder gains 2D6 attacks rather than D6."

Okay, so those are very clearly bonus (i.e. 'extra') Attacks, so that example and subsequent FAQ ruling isn't necessarily analogous IMHO.


The more I think about it, the more I'm conflicted on this one.

You can say that the Attacks gained by 'Timeshift' are clearly a 'bonus', in that they are only granted to the model when that power is in use...which clearly makes them in addition to what is normally allowed to the model (which is essentially the definition of a 'bonus').

I think the kicker here may be that the rule doubles the number of attacks it can make as opposed to the doubling the model's 'Attacks' (which would imply doubling the actual characteristic).

So after typing this out I think I've fully changed my mind.


1) Timeshift doubles the number of Attacks a model can make as opposed to its actual Attack characteristic, and therefore the characteristic cap doesn't apply here.
2) Even if it did, the attacks granted by Timeshift are clearly in addition to what the model can normally make, so therefore are bonus attacks (and are therefore exempt from the characteristic cap anyway).

Definitely mondo and yak FTW. Well worded.

yakface:

So all of the "doubled" attacks do count as bonus attacks?

I am trying to grasp this.

ductvader wrote:yakface:

So all of the "doubled" attacks do count as bonus attacks?

I am trying to grasp this.

That's my opinion after reading it carefully and thinking about it. If the rule simply doubled the models attacks then I think there would be a good case to cap it at the max of 10, but since the ability doubles the number of attacks the model gets to make this isn't a characteristic alteration and I think it does go above 10.