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Hey all, I have a friend that is considering getting into Warhammer 40k. He's not much for the fluff or background (yet) and definitely wants to do Space Marines and winning games is definitely important (he is a competitive kind of guy).

That being said, and again, avoiding any discussions of fluff, what are the differences between the two? Why would someone new to the game choose regular codex Space Marines over Blood Angels?

Here are my observations on the differences:

Space Marines
Combat Tactics
Thunderfire Cannon
Land Speeder Storm
Sniper Scouts(?)
Alternate Force Org - Bikes as troops, Scoring sternguard, Fleet
Sternguard

Blood Angels
Fast Rhino Chassis vehicles (36" range vindies, or 6" move and shoot all Preds)
Predator in Fast Attack slot that outflanks
Alternate Force Org - Assault Marines as troops
Land Raider transports for 215 points (for an assault squad) - wonder if the assault ramps let you charge after a deepstrike?
Storm Raven (though conversions are gonna be beyond him for a while)
Feel no Pain as option
Chance of Furious Charge and Fearless on almost all units


So, basically, it looks like Blood Angels do armored assault better and an overall better heavy tank list (I think you can probably come close to fitting 3 land raiders and 6 predators into a list). Codex Marines do gunline better and infantry shooty horde better. Blood Angels obviously do assault jump/infantry horde better.

Anything I missed? Overall, shooty should probably be C:SM unless he wants shooty tanks then it should be C:BA. Does that seem like a fair comparison?

Wha?

Hmm maybe get him to talk to his Games Workshop store?

Also, I believe CSM's are more assault then shooty.

Honestly, if he wants marines just get him to pick marines he likes the look of. Pick the army first, then get it competitive after, and since he either wants to be C:SM or BA, he isn't going to have a non-competitive army either way.

If I was to give advice for which army to choose I would say C:SM. Since it's his first army he can take it, and build it anyway he wants to go.

On the other hand, if he just wants to win take BA, buy lots of Razorbacks and just kill everyone with ease.

kaptaink provides great advice. I've found that enjoying the fluff of the army helps get through the lonely long hours of painting. So like kaptaink said, pick the army you like first then get it competitive.

If its a new player, I'd consider a vanilla SM army.
BA will be too specialized and will require a more skilled player.

@Somnicide: I think you covered it pretty well.

I don't know the Blood Angels codex very well, but the amount of dreadnoughts and the slots they can be in is probably a difference?

They can have "lash" like dreadnoughts to drag vehicles towards them.

Deepstriking in a lR does *not* let you assault - read the deepstrike rules.

Som, with Blood Angels you're also paying extra for a lot of those special abilities that Blood Angels have like the fast vehicles on rhino chassis...and special characters you're paying in the neighborhood of a land raider. Though a lot of people are looking at getting a discount on the costs by taking assault marines, removing their jump packs and then getting the fast vehicles at a lower points cost.

I agree with wuestenfux...if someone is just starting out, there's less special rules to deal with in the C:SM, and because most things cost less in that codex, you can also play with more toys for the same cost.

From what I've heard from people playing test games with the BA codex, Space Wolves are still the uber marine army out there thanks to the Grey Hunters, Long Fangs and TW cav. Your friend may want to go with them instead if winning is so important.

Seems like you've got the comparison pretty well down, Som; just don't forget the wolves as a pretty competitive option too.

Having dug through all three 5th edition SM codexes recently, they're all pretty solid choices.

That said, for the beginner, vanilla marines have some decent advantages over the other codexes. They have kits for all the different units in the codex (if I'm not forgetting something), most of which are fully plastic; they have extra transport capacity in their pods and Land Raiders so you don't need to sacrifice unit flexibility to include an IC with most of your transported units; and, probably most importantly, vanilla marines are going to be the first new codex with any new version of 40k that comes out in the future (no 8+ year wait for something that will work well with the new rules set... we all know they're going to have to release 6th edition sooner or later in order to keep the game growing).

I don't think your friend is going to go far wrong whichever army he chooses, but for an easy first army, I think vanilla marines are the winner.

I believe Blood Angels have Sternguard and Scouts with Sniper rifles (listed in their section at the GW website). Also I may be wrong but all Blood Angels have Combat Tactics with a random chance of exchanging it for fearless and furious charge. Vanilla Marines still have Thunderfire Cannons, Land Speeder Storms, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, bikes as troops, ability to spam dreadnoughts, plus all their special characters that alter the army a bit.

Personally, I'm starting to look at the Vanilla Space Marines the same way as I look at the Dark Angels. Unless you want to do a specialized section of the codex, you are better off else where.

I wasn't pleased when I saw that the BA codex has Vanguard and Sternguard vets (mainly because I thought those were unique bits with the standard Marine codex.)

Blood Angels squads have access to combat squads, but they do not have access to "chapter tactics" [If I'm wrong please correct me, because I only got to see the dex for like 5 minutes]. Overall the blood angels will be much better for assault, but for a shooty, tactically flexible army, the standard marines will still have an advantage.

My particular play style (mechanized, balanced towards shooting over assault) makes heavy use of firepower and mobility. I use chapter tactics with my combat squads to keep them out of assaults.

If you want to do an assault oriented force, you're going to want to play BA or Space Wolves, but if you're going for tactical flexibility and firepower, standard Marines are still very good.

It's really up to what you are comfortable with running to your playstyle.