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while killing time and playing around with different 'Ard boy lists i had a thought.
for 2500 points 2-3 tanks just seem underwhelming. for that many points it seems like 5-6 tanks feel right.
but then there's where the trouble starts. i don't want to loose my Hydras, but they'd be the first Heavy slot i could part with.
then there's the Manticore. i can't do it though. it's too good. it stays.
and the final hurdle is they have to be squadroned. so i thought 2 tank squadrons, with 1 Executioner and 1 naked Russ. that's the only way i could see doing a squadron. 1 pricey tank, 1 cheap tank. and only 2 per squadron. i only get 4 tanks instead of the 5-6 that i wanted.
does anyone use squadrons at any level, to any great success?
is it really in the end just not worth it to try squadrons?
what about Squadrons of Hellhounds or Devil Dogs? i would say they would suffer from all the problems the Heavy tanks would.

What I love about IG is that they could have 18 battle tanks in a normal game
If you have money,very importantly,then get 6 lemon russ,one squad of something else
And get 9 devil dogs
Keep points low,no upgrade
And have a tinny little infantry platoon

not that it couldn't be done, but it would be too many squadrons to risk. it would be so easy to lose vehicles.
not to mention you's lose all your Vendetta option.
does anyone use Devil Dogs/Hellhounds/Bane Wolves in squadrons of 2? i was thinking of
running 1 Hellhound and 1 Devil Dog in a squadron together.

Squadrons have quite a few small bonuses, one big bonus, and a couple of big weaknesses.

The one really major bonus you get from squadroning tanks is wound allocation, and increased efficiency of blasts.

For example, one Leman Russ hits 6 marines in cover. They're likely to lose 2-3 models, and none of those will be sergeants or special weapons.

Two Russ tanks in a squadron hit those same 6 marines, and all of a sudden you're not only killing a larger portion of the unit, but you're forcing wounds in important models as well.

Another advantage of squadrons is cover rules.

Let's say you have 2 hellhound variant tanks in a squadron, one of them becomes stunned. Because of the squadron rules the stunned is downgraded to shaken, and on your next movement phase you can fire smoke on the damaged tank in order to give the entire squadron a cover save. This can also be used to simply give the squadron two turns of cover from smoke launchers.

Another minor advantage of squadrons is the ability to stack damage onto one tank. Lets say your opponent shoots at the squadron with one unit, and gets one penetrating/glancing hit. When the next unit shoots at the same squadron, you can put damage onto the same tank again, increasing survivability of the squadron as a whole.

The big disadvantage that accompanies all of this is of course the fact that immobilizing hits turn into wrecks instead. Considering the fact that you're just as likely to get an immobilizing result as you are to get a stunned or weapon destroyed result, the ability to mitigate those other damage results becomes of marginal usefulness.

Also, if your opponent has an "overkill" anti-tank unit (think meltavets or firedragons) then you have the potential to lose more tanks to one unit's fire. This is also a major disadvantage.

Then there's the disadvantage that the whole squadron must shoot the same target. Sometimes this isn't a big deal, especially if you're shooting at a particularly durable target, but in many instances you need two tanks to be able to shoot at two different things in order to be able to maximize the damage output of your army.

I think that overall squadrons are more viable as the amount of points being played increases, as you can afford to have more squadrons in your list the weaknesses of having just a single squadron becomes mitigated by redundancy.

I think in my "dream" 'Ard Boyz IG list I would have three squadrons of executioners, or possibly demolishers.

I have since the new codex came out been running two stock russes, squadron'd, (HB sponsons) in my mech IG list. (the other heavies being a hydra and an executioner)

they have recently become Eradicators because of the large amount of horde armies in my local meta, but are still in a squadron.

And I have had little complaints about their performance.

I most often lose them to close combat monsters, but even then because of allocation, I can usually get one to survive, a bit worse for wear, but still holding its kill point of able to contest. But the thing is, I use them as a decoy an awful lot, with the long range guns they usually set up fair from my lines, pound away and when a daemon prince or other MC shows up and kills them, said MC is far away from the rest of my battle line.

I would not use some of the more up close tanks in squadrons, like Demonlishers or Punishers, and I would also avoid putting anything with an executioner or anything with Pask, because then the points get so high...

Overall, heavy slot competition is so tough that I think you almost have to rely on Russes in squadrons or go the artillery route.

@Dainty: I forgot about Eradicators! I absolutely love that tank, and I think they perform better in squadrons, for sure.

@Willydstyle, very good run-down of the facts, good stuff.

I think allocating hits is a bit deceptive though - you don't win by taking fire on the chin, you win by putting it out efficiently. Any benefits in that direction are outweighed by the immobilised-destroyed problem, which for long-range, turreted shooting tanks is a huge deal.

If I were doing squadroned tanks, I'd take no sponsons, and stick to the cheaper variants. Definitely only 2 tanks, 3 is overkill. I can imagine 2 eradicators, 2 demolishers and 2 leman russes being a workable heavy support section - not really tournament level like you see on this site, but good enough for some.

I like vanilla Russes squadroned as overglorified artillery. I usually keep them back in a corner and shell people with them, but maintain the ability to start rolling them across the battlefield because they can keep firing their cannon all the while. 14 front armor doesn't make me fear them blowing up much. Also, and I'm much more paranoid about this, but 1 Hellhound can tear up an infantry unit, but 2 Hellhounds will finish it off. Long as you don't lose sight of enemy melta, I don't see any issues with it. I'm so confidant in the hellhounds that I'm taking them to Adepticon.

I have ran 2 squadrons of 2 banewolves with heavy flamers serveral times. I usually outflank one with the big guy and strategic reserve the other as a countercharge unit. They have performed brilliantly.
I don't advocate squardoning russes ever but the hellhound and it's variants are very well suited to it, so are vendettas.

Willy posted some really good stuff... I'll just weigh in with my rules of thumb regarding IG and tank squadrons.

Firstly, IG has great stuff in the HQ slot, great stuff in the fast attack slot, good troops and fantastic heavy support. I generally wouldn't think of squadroning anything except hydras/griffons until I had filled my fast attack and taken my second CCS. I mentioned hydras/griffons because taking two is really the equivalent in points investment to taking one of anything else, and taking only a single hydra/griffon is a waste of a good slot, IMO.

So, if you've got your three hellhound variants, or your three vendettas, and you've got your 2 manticores, you are happy with your troops, and you've got the points. A big squadron in that last heavy slot isn't out of the question, a pair of virtually any leman russ variant is a good choice dependent on what the rest of your army is lacking... take a pair of exterminators to make a super-hydra battery. Take a pair of battle tanks for long range marine/tau hate. Take a pair of demolishers and just roll them over people.

As the games get bigger, you'll find that you might end up doing a lot more squadroning, rather than dipping into the elite slot (which is the soft underbelly of IG imo)...

but ultimately, splitting fire, overkill protection and immunity to immobilize kills are more important to me than taking more tanks of a certain slot.

Agreed shep, I'm amazed I forgot to mentio hydras. I always take a squadron of two now, and am actually considering a second squadron of two. I need a manticore... ugh, off to the swap shop!

Shep wrote:
So, if you've got your three hellhound variants, or your three vendettas, and you've got your 2 manticores, you are happy with your troops, and you've got the points. A big squadron in that last heavy slot isn't out of the question, a pair of virtually any leman russ variant is a good choice dependent on what the rest of your army is lacking... take a pair of exterminators to make a super-hydra battery. Take a pair of battle tanks for long range marine/tau hate. Take a pair of demolishers and just roll them over people.

As the games get bigger, you'll find that you might end up doing a lot more squadroning, rather than dipping into the elite slot (which is the soft underbelly of IG imo)...

first of all, thanks to all of you guys for the input.

@willydstyle
thanks for the break down!

@Shep
i'd almost be affraid to run Vendettas in squadrons. when you squadron them, 2 squadrons of 3? 2 squadrons of 2? how do you do it? and do you always take 2 Manticores?


i guess it comes from something in me, but 2-3 tanks at 2000 just seems lacking. but once you put in the Hydras and Manticores, you really don't have alot of choices left.
so what is in your (everyone in general) IG HS slots?

alarmingrick wrote:i'd almost be affraid to run Vendettas in squadrons. when you squadron them, 2 squadrons of 3? 2 squadrons of 2? how do you do it?

Never more than 2. And only in squads of 2 when playing a themey air-cav list. They are such a high priority for so many people, too vulnerable to over-kill autocannon or missile launcher spill-over, and in many cases 6 twin-linked lascannons is much more than you need for a job.

alarmingrick wrote:and do you always take 2 Manticores?

Almost always... but thats just me. Doesn't make it the right way to do it

alarmingrick wrote:i guess it comes from something in me, but 2-3 tanks at 2000 just seems lacking. but once you put in the Hydras and Manticores, you really don't have alot of choices left.

by "tanks" do you mean leman russes? Because my armies tend to have 9-10 vehicles with the 'tank' rule. My armies aren't running armor 14 because I have this philosophy that armor 14 is best when people are shooting at it. And if i end up with 9 armor 12 vehicles and 3 leman russes... then what do my opponents tend to shoot at? usually for every leman russ you can find an armor 12 artillery piece that shoots the same gun. and if I've got 10 armor 12 vehicles, then I like adding 3-4 more and saturating. My favorite use of leman russ is the way my friend nashdeisel runs his IG. he uses foot platoons to screen three squadrons of two leman russes. i believe he runs a pair of vanquishers and 4 standard battle tanks. He outflanks penal legionaires to score far away objectives. this leaves you shooting at armor 14 or T3 with nothing in between. Really mkaes the autocannon look pretty grim.

alarmingrick wrote:so what is in your (everyone in general) IG HS slots?

I'd say a good 85% of my lists start the same way. 2x hydra, manticore, manticore. But that's just me

My current heavy slots are filled with 1 Manticore, 1 Executioner and 1 enclosed Bassie.

I have experimented with 2 Vanquishers, 2 LRBT's, and 2 enclosed Bassies. I don't mind the squadron of enclosed Bassies. The squadron of Vanquishers is situational (hello diagonal deployment) and the squadron LRBT's was just ok.

sorry Shep. i meant Russes. big AV 14 tanks.
does running lots of smaller "softer" AV 12 targets survive long? don't get me wrong, i get where you are coming from. but it seems like they would die quicker than the Russes would. and while they are wasting time trying to kill the Russes the av 12's would be safer, to a point.

@Shep - interesting take on why you do a sea of 12 and leave the 14 in the foam. Here's my take. I toss the 14s in because they draw fire away from the 12s. In particular, my squadron of 2 russes will often get ignored in shooting and the enemy dashes towards them with assault/melta stuff. So I draw the enemy away from my main battle line.

or, my executioner soaks so much fire because it is so deadly.

So all my AV 12s (chimeras to move my troops around, devildog/valk/vendetta to kill stuff) remain unmolested. Doesn't always work with the vend, most people seem to hate them.

I run a Hydra as my 3rd slot cause I only have one model, but I think I will be heading to a Manticore soon....

3 basilisks baby! I don't like to have to shoot a target twice. Do you really want to waste another battle cannon shot at the 3 marines from the squad that you killed 7 the previous turn. The biggest advantage of squadroned vehicles is the wound saturation. You are placing all the blast templates and adding up the hits before a single model is removed

Personally, I've found the colossus to be a recockulous kill monster. Has anyone tried squadroning these?

Has anyone tried squadroning these?

Does fantasizing count?

willydstyle wrote:
Another advantage of squadrons is cover rules.

Let's say you have 2 hellhound variant tanks in a squadron, one of them becomes stunned. Because of the squadron rules the stunned is downgraded to shaken, and on your next movement phase you can fire smoke on the damaged tank in order to give the entire squadron a cover save. This can also be used to simply give the squadron two turns of cover from smoke launchers.

Just to point out to people that this only works on squadrons of 2. A squadron of three requires two tanks to be obscured before any get a cover save.