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So Whitescar got me thinking about my poor 5th ed. Beastmen army, sitting unloved for so long. I'd like to get back in before 7th edition, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with 'em. I'm hoping to get some good feedback here. I apologize in advance for my lack of sophistication with this army--if my questions seem to have self-evident or obvious answers, I hope you'll give me the benefit of the doubt--it's been a while!

Here's what I got:
2 Chariots
3 chieftan/lord figures
1 shaman
2 extra champions (foe-renders)
36 metal gors (HW/Shield) w/2 full commands (champ/banner/horn)
20 Bestigor w/full command
24 ungor w/spears/shields.

[I've also got an unknown number of minotaurs (I think 4) and several non GW figs, a pile of the old plastic gors with halberds, and several mortal chaos troops, including marauders, knights and warriors. I'm leaving these aside for the time being]

So this is what I've come up with (note that I haven't added any wargear yet, except the dispell scrolls):

• Beastlord--MOCU

• Wargor--MOCU (probably will be Army Standard with War banner)
  

• Bray Shaman (lvl 2) w/2 dispels and a braystaff-MOCU

• 3xBeast herds: 12 gors (HW/Shield)  incl. full command + foe-render; 8 Ungor (spear/shield)

• 2x1 Chariot-MOCU

• 1x20 bestigor w/full command)-MOCU

That gets me to 1238 points I recognize it's the wrong balance of characters, but I'm hoping to get to 2000+ here) Here are my questions

1. Is this a bad starting list, or do I have some hope (in particular, how's the herd breakdown: should I have more ungor per unit? Fewer gor?)?
   
2. What kind of wargear should I be looking at for the Beastlord?  The Black Maul or Axes of Khorgor? Chaos armor or heavy armor?
   
3. What should I add to this list? I want to get more chariots (2? 3?) and another bray shaman for sure, and maybe throw in a unit of Minotaurs and some chaos hounds (small units to run interference/maneuver around units). Should I be looking at Centigor? Spawn? Mortals? More beast herds? More bestigors? Marked bestigors?
   
4. Do you have to ambush? Is ambush a good idea?
   

Thanks in advance!

In general, you want many ungors and few gors in a herd. This is because gors are relatively expensive and don't contribute attacks when in the second rank. Having more than enough gors for a front rank + 1-2 casualties is usually excessive.

Sadly, it is not worthwhile to get shields for ungors: by getting extra ungors instead, their survivability is greater. You get 25% more wounds in exchange for losing a save that only works 16% of the time -assuming you get it at all. Further, it becomes easier to outnumber the enemy with the extra models gained.

One thing to look for when expanding is fast troops that negate rank bonuses. Warhounds, Daemonette Cavalry, Centigors, and Marauder Cavalry are all good in this role. Chaos spawn, if they have the mark of Slaanesh, are good at reducing the opponent's mobility, thanks to their being unbreakable.

Ambushing is almost always a good idea (though not required). Get the Horn of the Great Hunt for your general and it even becomes reasonably reliable, which is especially nice for putting units of warhounds in the enemy's rear to negate rank bonuses.

The list itself looks okay, apart from wanting more ungors per herd. That said, I am somewhat uncertain of the bestigors, but then again, I've never considered such a large unit of them before. It would be nice to know how they work out.

One last thing: check your bases. The ungors are all on 25mm bases now, unlike the older metal models.

Thanks Alarantalara: I'll try to revise the list later today/tomorrow (though I'd love further feedback from folk!).

Re: Ungors. So something like 5-7 gors would be sound (i.e. 5+ 2 for casualties?)? Is 8 enough Ungors per unit, or should there be significantly more to catch arrows/bullets etc.? Since the most rank bonus a herd can get is 2+, is it worth having more than 3 ranks? I'm guessing not (aside: it seems like BOC is an army built around lots of smaller/medium sized units rather than big blocks of infantry; does that sound right?) I will be rebasing my ungors, not to fret. Frankly, that's been one of my impediments to redoing this list. That and a glut of 40k playing. I'd really rather not take the shields off the models--will that penalize me WYSIWYG-wise (i.e. they have shields on the models but not in their stat-line)?

Horn of Great Hunt is a go. What are good units to ambush? Sounds like mostly fast units (warhounds and centigors) rather than full herds...

Regarding Ambush: I don't have the book in front of me, but from re-reading the 'dex last night it sounded like you could put the ambushing units on any table edge, not just your own. Did I read that stupid?

That is actually a very solid start to a Beasts army. I second the gor/ungor ratio comments. If I were to play this list I would add warhounds (3 units is good and cheap), Chaos Spawn ( might as well get 2, and undivided is ok if you want theme), and a unit or two of centigors. This gives you a great theme by not mixing daemonic and "mortal" units, and is still very effective.

For ambushing, I'm pretty sure you cannot ambush centigors. Warhounds, herds, and characters are your options. If you go the ambush route maybe add a 4th warhound unit, and ambush with the second shaman (I'm not sure if shamans can do this btw...). Give the Shaman Shadow and the staff that gives you the movement spell. You could have 1 herd, 2 warhound units, and the shaman with the herd. Could be very effective. Use the Beastlords leadership to get everyone non-ambushing stuck in combat and holding with the Army Standard nearby, and sweep in with the ambushers and centigors.

First off, yes around 7 or 8 Gors is better than 12 for big units - with no armor you'll be expecting to lose a couple and you want to hold off on letting those Ungor get into btb with the enemy for as long as possible (since they're even easier to kill than the Gor are). With Beastigor in the list, having 20 strong herds aren't as necessary, but one large group that you can stick either the lord or Wargor in isn't such a bad idea. Centigors can't ambush - only beastman characters, warhounds, and beast herds (not beastigor). Generally, good ambush units are warhounds and 1 or 2 smallish (~13) beast herds.

The 'de facto' kit for the Beastlord is Horn of the Great Hunt, Armor of Damnation (from the Hordes book - yes, you can mix magic items from both lists), and Slaughterer's Blade. Hard as nails.

And yes, you can put your ambushers on any table edge - that's what makes ambushing beasts so nasty, the ability to completely surround the enemy's force so quickly.

It's a good start, but I'd like to see those Beast Herds changed around a bit (reverse the # of Gor/Ungor in two units, and then have two more smallish Herds with just Foe Render and Musician). The next step would be to get some more fast/hard hitting stuff in there and see where you want to go from there.

KW

Okay, did some revisions, and this is what I'm looking at. Please note that this includes things I have as well as things I'd need to acquire, indicated with an *

Beastlord : Horn of great Hunt, Armor of Damnation, Slaughterer's Blade (really? I mean, it's nice, but aren't some of the other weapons more, um, wompy?)

Wargor : ASB; heavy armor, War Banner

2xBray Shamans: Braystaff, 2 dispell scrolls

20 Bestigor w/full command

2x beast herds: 7 Gor + Foe-Render; 10 Ungor. Full command.

1x beast herds: 4 Gor + Foe-Render; 9 Ungor. Musician only. (need 5 more ungor)*

4x5 chaos hounds *

3x Tuskgor Chariots (need one chariot)*

Centigors : 8 including gorehoof.*

2x Chaos Spawn

That's 1935 points, with 4 characters, 3 herds, and 20 hounds that can ambush , of which, I'd probably use half the hounds and one of the herds for that purpose... I'm thinking of dropping the centigors and or the chaos spawn for some minotaurs and/or a 4th chariot, however.

Good start? Bad start? Better proportion of gors/ungors in the herds? Are centigor worthwhile, or are minotaurs the better option? Or, am I missing something entirely?

Thanks again!

[EDIT] Fixed a few things here and there.

Most of the better weapons cost too many points. The listed wargear accounts for the entire 100 points allowed a beastlord. So, no extra wompy weapons unless you want worse armor or less reliable ambushing.

Alarantalara: Fair enough. And it is nice to get the wounds back.

Any thoughts on Centigors vs. Minotaurs? Should I have another herd in there?   

I've never got around to trying Centigors, so I don't really have an opinion on them. I use Minotaurs primarily because I don't have a large unit of Bestigors and want the S6 weaponry so that I can hurt heavy armor/toughness enemies. Since you have that in the Bestigors (though with fewer attacks), you may find the Centigors' extra speed more useful.

If you have the points, another beast herd is always nice. You may find yourself needing multiple units back there, especially if attacking warmachines like cannons and hellblasters. It's very nice to have them all dead by turn 3, especially when using 30-75 point units to do it.

Thanks for the advice. I'll give Cents a try; I always liked the idea of centaurs and missed them from pre-5th ed. Lots of options model-wise there, too! Maybe I'll do the Minotaurs in 2250...

Alarantalara wrote: If you have the points, another beast herd is always nice. You may find yourself needing multiple units back there, especially if attacking warmachines like cannons and hellblasters. It's very nice to have them all dead by turn 3, especially when using 30-75 point units to do it.

75 points? I'm assuming that's a 5/10 herd, or is there a foe-render in there somewhere? Do you recommend running smaller herds without champs? I'd think you'd want the bump in leadership, as piddly as it is, at least for the ambush roll...

YEAH BABY!!

Here's to the bored with 40K crew

Get that list to 2250 and lets get some games going

Oh yeah, let's learn how to play the game too.

Looking forward to some fantasy at Rogues Den

WS

Alright, further revised list: 2000 points

Beastlord: Horn, Armor of Damned, Slaughterer's blade, Shield (? If not, then one of the herds gets another ungor)

Wargor: heavy armor, HW, ASB, war banner

2x Bray Shaman: level 2, braystaff, 2 Dispell Scrolls

Bestigor Herd: 20 w/full command

Centigor: 7+Gorehoof; full command

2x Beast Herd: 7 Gor+ Foe Render, 10 Ungor; full command

2x Beast Herd: 4 Gor+Foe Render, 9 Ungor; musician

4xChaos Hounds 5 per unit

4x Tuskgor Chariots

2 smaller herds and 2-3 chaos hound units ambush. Lord runs with Bestigor and/or Wargor. Shamans run with 2 larger beast herds (unless that's the stupidest idea ever).

Yes? No? Maybe? Chickens? Thanks again!

Chickens - definately chickens.

Looks good actually. You'll have to let us know how it performs.

KW

Thanks Kwade. It'll take some doing to get it up to speed, but I'll (hopefully) be playtesting it sometime before Xmas.  

Regarding 75 point beastherds. I have a great desire for numbers over quality in my own lists, so I just run extra herds and accept the fact that about half of them will end up in random places. Since everything moves quickly, and people usually play along the long board edges, they tend to have about a 50% chance of coming in close enough to be useful even when they fail their leadership check. And, even when they don't, a cheaper squad is easier to accept as an effective loss and can often claim table quarters for extra points.

So, while I can see the desire for reliability, I personally don't mind the loss caused by not having foe-renders as I find the horn provides enough reliability to satisfy me. Finally, I sometimes place wargors with the ambushing units. While they leave the unit upon arrival, they are a good way to get extra reliabilty and additional mobile units behind the enemy at the same time.

 Alarantalara: that makes a certain amount of sense...

So I'm looking at the book again, and I see the 'drunken' rule under Centigors. Uh-oh. does this hamper folk a lot? Am I better with something more 'reliable', even if it doesn't hit as hard (e.g. another chariot and another small herd?)?   

Strictly speaking, beast herds are just as reliable (unruly being much like frenzy but without the charge bonus). Besides, stupidity will be a problem somewhat less than once every other game and frenzy will often be to your benefit as they will then hit harder. I don't think it's anything to worry about.

To hijack the topic: is there something else that can be done with gor miniatures? :s

To un-hijack the topic:

The ratio of gors to ungors is a matter of great dispute among Beast generals. I always take the 12 gor/8 ungor herds myself. Three of them. But then, I run a Kazrak list for preference, so all my ambushing units set up in ambush; the rest of my army is there to distract the enemy until they arrive. Using smaller units allows you to have more units, which means you can ambush with more of them if you aren't using Kazrak.

I think your initial list isn't bad at all, though I wouldn't put the War Banner on a BSB. If you're going to take a BSB at all, and you're going to give him a magic banner, I'd use something more expensive. But I'd rather take another shaman than a BSB, anyway.

Speaking of shamans, drop one dispell scroll in favor of a power stone, for that one spell in the game you absolutely need to get off. Three scrolls is plenty.

As for centigors, drunken isn't that much more annoying than unruly. It is mainly a problem when I want my missle-armed centis to hang out for a turn and soften up an enemy unit, to ready a combined charge later- and they go frenzied and charge in early.

That said, my minotaurs always make the table, while my centigors see only about one game out of five. Minotaurs are reliable. Another unit that always makes it in the list are three Dragon Ogres.

The last post before this was in 2005 i dont think anyone cares about the original topic anymore

lol @ Vidar

Gah! Threadomancy!