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Since no one else is doing it, I will post my Gladiator list!

2010 CSM Adepticon Gladiator list V. 2.0

HQ
Abaddon

Chaos Sorcerer w/MoS, Steed of Slaanesh, Familiar, Warptime, Lash

Elites
9 Terminator w/IoT, Chainfist, 4 Combi-Meltas, 2 Reaper Autocannons
1 Aspiring Terminator Champion w/2 Lightning Claws

Troops
10 Thousand Sons
1 Aspiring Sorcerer w/Warptime

10 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Icon of Chaos Glory

10 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Icon of Chaos Glory

Heavy Support
3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators

No vehicles, but durable. I tried to take as many 4+ Inv. saves as I can. I am worried about the lack of troops, but not many kill points.

Certainly a different list..

Quite a few question marks pop up when reading this.

First of all, there is a huge lack of mobility. 16 thousand sons in one squad, is just one slow moving blob. The terminators can deepstrike, just hope to not mishap and to not get shot up too much. Heavy weapons on a footslogging CSM squad means you sacrifice moving or shooting every turn, and CSM should be moving.

There are no spots at all for your very weak HQ's. They will be shot down very quickly.

9 oblits is good, but with this list i dont see it working very well.

For CSM rhinos really are needed, CSM isnt a sit back and shoot army, it isnt cost effective and with this list, getting to objectives is going to be difficult, much less holding them.

mrwittwer wrote:Certainly a different list..

Quite a few question marks pop up when reading this.

First of all, there is a huge lack of mobility. 16 thousand sons in one squad, is just one slow moving blob. The terminators can deepstrike, just hope to not mishap and to not get shot up too much. Heavy weapons on a footslogging CSM squad means you sacrifice moving or shooting every turn, and CSM should be moving.

I think the problem is that you are looking at it from the point of view that Chaos as an assault army. I hope to be able to win a shoot-out and have them come to me.
Other than that, what is the hurry? Why do I need a rhino? Where am I going to?
Oh, and Blackmoor never Deepstrikes!

There are no spots at all for your very weak HQ's. They will be shot down very quickly.

The HQs are not monstrous creatures, so just like all of the other ICs, they can go into any squad for protection until needed.

9 oblits is good, but with this list i dont see it working very well.

Well if that is true, then I will find that out on Friday, and you will find it out on Wednesday when I do my battle reports.

For CSM rhinos really are needed, CSM isnt a sit back and shoot army, it isnt cost effective and with this list, getting to objectives is going to be difficult, much less holding them.

I plan on slowly sauntering up to the objectives. I have at least 5 turns, why the rush? You kids are always in a hurry!

i suppose you dont need to go assault, thats just the entire basic idea behind chaos marines. In my experience CSM is not a shooty army, SM do it a lot better with combat squads.

And yes while you can put your IC's into squads it completly ignores the upgrades you have given them. The disc and the steed are not cost effective at this point since they cannot move outside the normal paramiters of the squad they are joined with.

I think your real threats are mass fire armies. Invulns are awesome, but your eldar list specifically would rip this one open I think. Lash could be used to some effect though so I will leave that up to the dice gods.

IF you're going for shooty marines, I think more squads, more guns would be better. I won't write off S&P bolters with AP3, but there could be more weapons in the army.

I also agree 5 turns is 30 inches of movement to get to an objective. Even S&P can make it half of that pretty easily. I dont' think you need rhinos in every army unless you're bringing everything in armor to outmaneuver. I don't think you are even trying to maneuver with this list, much less outmaneuver.

So my real critique would focus on the number of wounds you're bringing. I am not sure what the Asp Champ is getting out of Warptime in the 1ksons squad so I would really go with WoC or something else. I would drop 5 of the 1ksons to arm that CSM squad with a lascannon or bring perhaps another squad of CSM with more weapons. In that case, they can 'choose' to fire at all these CSM units and ignore the S&P bolterdudes, but they'll pay for it. I like the oblits as is.

Zain60 wrote:I think your real threats are mass fire armies. Invulns are awesome, but your eldar list specifically would rip this one open I think. Lash could be used to some effect though so I will leave that up to the dice gods.

I agree that massed fire (and Null Zone) will give me trouble. The gladiator is about bringing big mean killing things, and everyone loads up on the AP weapons so I am kind of building my list on the Gladiator meta game.

IF you're going for shooty marines, I think more squads, more guns would be better. I won't write off S&P bolters with AP3, but there could be more weapons in the army.

I agree. One of the weak points of my army is the lack of troops. I might just scale down the TS marines and take more CSM. There is a durablity in numbers, and if I have them screened by the TS marines and the Terminators they will get a 4+ cover save.

I also agree 5 turns is 30 inches of movement to get to an objective. Even S&P can make it half of that pretty easily. I dont' think you need rhinos in every army unless you're bringing everything in armor to outmaneuver. I don't think you are even trying to maneuver with this list, much less outmaneuver.

I will get to where I want to go eventually. I hope there is no missions with objective in the oppoenents deployment zone. And if we get to place the objectives, I will lump them together so there will be 3 within 12" of each other.

So my real critique would focus on the number of wounds you're bringing. I am not sure what the Asp Champ is getting out of Warptime in the 1ksons squad so I would really go with WoC or something else. I would drop 5 of the 1ksons to arm that CSM squad with a lascannon or bring perhaps another squad of CSM with more weapons. In that case, they can 'choose' to fire at all these CSM units and ignore the S&P bolterdudes, but they'll pay for it. I like the oblits as is.

WoC only works if you are a fast mover. So it works good on Rhino squads and flyers (Like my sorcerer). What I am really worried about with this army is assault. If I get into it, I am worried that I will never get out of it, so warptime combined with a force weapon is what I hope will help out there. TS Marines are aweful in assault, and besided the terminators, I will be hard pressed to get out of it. I tooled up the HQ units as best as I could, but they will still struggle against a true assault army.

Thanks for the rationale Blackmoor. I think if you just tone down that one squad you can make the 5 man CSM very useful for overall bonus to the army.

I didn't even really think about WoC that way, but it's interesting to use Warptime as a contingency. That would ruin someone's day if they weren't paying attention and sent something not immune to instant death at your squad.

Intriguing list, Allan. I'd be concerned about running only 3 scoring units @ 2250 for any Adepticon-style missions, but those Thousand Sons are very durable against the usual anti-MEQ suspects.

That termi unit is going to be bad news for a lot of assault units, too.

Well, the durability of the list certainly isn't in question. And I'm definitely with you on the rhinos bit.

So many people in the blood angels thread are talking up fast rhinos for assault marines. A move that ultimately slows them down in almost all cases...

At some point everyone understood that mechanizing units could add a layer of protection from assaults, and occasionally add mobility when they weren't blasted off the table on turn one.

But i'm not thinking that any of blackmoor's units (excpet that 5man) are too concerned about being protected from assaults. Unless those assaults came from deathstars. And 9 oblits and some generalship can slow down the deathstars, and I'm hoping that 10 "mini-storm shield terminators" could handle clean-up.

All that being said, it might not be troop light in bodies, but I think its troop light in number of units. i think i'd feel better if that 5 man unit could somehow become a 'real' unit. Do you need 15 1ksons?

Shep wrote:But i'm not thinking that any of blackmoor's units (excpet that 5man) are too concerned about being protected from assaults. Unless those assaults came from deathstars. And 9 oblits and some generalship can slow down the deathstars, and I'm hoping that 10 "mini-storm shield terminators" could handle clean-up.

Actually, that prompts a couple questions:

What is the plan against 2250 pts of IG gunline?

What is the plan against silly Apoc units?

I know you probably have a plan; I'm just curious, as I don't see it. (Well, 9 BS4 lascannons are a start, but that's not going to clear a Hierophant (for example) before it does real damage.)

Blackmoor - You are a bravor man than I Gunga Din. Nice list. At first glance my biggest worry would be the enemy getting a dreadnought or Soulgrinder into HtH with the T-sons. That would appear to be a slow train to paintown. I also concur with your concern with the T-sons getting hammered in HtH. I think I have a suggestion. INstead of one of your current HQ's throw Kharn in there. The Betrayer can attach to the T-sons to be a huge deterrent. He'll have a good chance to stop any walker who threatens to get into HtH with your T-sons and he will also prevent your T-sons from getting Lashed themselves around the board.

DarthDiggler wrote:Blackmoor - You are a bravor man than I Gunga Din. Nice list. At first glance my biggest worry would be the enemy getting a dreadnought or Soulgrinder into HtH with the T-sons. That would appear to be a slow train to paintown. I also concur with your concern with the T-sons getting hammered in HtH. I think I have a suggestion. INstead of one of your current HQ's throw Kharn in there. The Betrayer can attach to the T-sons to be a huge deterrent. He'll have a good chance to stop any walker who threatens to get into HtH with your T-sons and he will also prevent your T-sons from getting Lashed themselves around the board.

I like where you are headed.

For some reason I did not think of the special characters because I am so tzeentch-centric.

I do not own a Karn model, but I do own an Abaddon model that I can stick into the middle of the Thousand Sons and scare the crap out of people. Funny thing is that he is only 60 points more than the MoT sorcerer. That knocks me down to only 12 TS Marines.

You could take Tzeentch Raptors in that list instead of so many terminators. Or you could just put the IC by himself.

Large squad is probably best anyway.

Tacobake wrote:You could take Tzeentch Raptors in that list instead of so many terminators. Or you could just put the IC by himself.

Large squad is probably best anyway.

I own 30 raptor models, and my first lists had them in it.

I wanted to try another direction.

Blackmoor wrote:

Tacobake wrote:You could take Tzeentch Raptors in that list instead of so many terminators. Or you could just put the IC by himself.

Large squad is probably best anyway.

I own 30 raptor models, and my first lists had them in it.

I wanted to try another direction.

Looks like a good list anyway. Safer. Warptime is good anyway. And you could always double-charge or charge with the Terminators. Or whatever.

Update my list with version 2.0.

Janthkin wrote:
Actually, that prompts a couple questions:

What is the plan against 2250 pts of IG gunline?

I am scared of Lascannons and that is it. If I can take them out, then I will be in good shape. In the mean time I will walk forward and shoot my bolters since I can move and shoot, my effective range is 24". Also my Sorcerer can assault out of my squad with a possible charge range of 19"-24" and see what carnage he can cause. Also lash will cherry pick the heavy weapons squads out of the crowd if they can. But I would prefer not to face an IG gunline, and I think I would do much better against Mech IG. I hope that the IG gunlines have it out with assault armies, and I will not have to face them.

What is the plan against silly Apoc units?

Hope I face them in a screw the big ones mission? I will blast away with 11 lascannons. That should hurt them a bit.

I know you probably have a plan; I'm just curious, as I don't see it. (Well, 9 BS4 lascannons are a start, but that's not going to clear a Hierophant (for example) before it does real damage.)

A Hierophant will eat lascannons, for as many turns as they can shoot (which is all of them since it never gets locked in combat). 11 lascannons do 3.6 wounds a round. I do not think nids have anything that can hurt oblits so I just need to set up in the back and buy some time. At this point I have Abaddon to try to hurt him if he tries to assault. Lash whips hurt, but he should only do 2 wounds to him on average while Abaddon averages 3 wounds a round. The 1000 points of other bugs should not hurt too much, and they have a real hard time against a 2+ save.

I like the second list. Much more scary with more balance between the threats. Hope it turns out well for you.

I didn't think you'd throw in Abaddon, nice one! Did you consider Ahriman? Or did you want more CC nastiness?

Blackmoor, I will make your list look better by posting mine

demons

bloodthirster with blessing and might
skarbrand
6 crushers icon fury musc
6 crushers icon fury musc
5 flamer
10 horrors with icon changling and bolt
5 letters
5 letters
5 letters
5 letters
2 soulgrinders
1 blood slaughterer

Zain60 wrote:I like the second list. Much more scary with more balance between the threats. Hope it turns out well for you.

I didn't think you'd throw in Abaddon, nice one! Did you consider Ahriman? Or did you want more CC nastiness?

I thought about him, but he is just bad though. The INAT has him casting only one of each shooting powers per round, so if I wanted to kill a tank I can only shoot one BoC, and if I wanted to go after infantry I can shoot on Doombolt, and then one BoC. Also he sucks in assault and he is only 25 points cheaper than Abaddon. If you look at the special characters for his points, they are killers like Logan Grimnar, so Ahriman is a waste of points.

I didn't realize Ahriman was so gimped on the INAT, but I completely understand him being underpowered in comparison to newer IC's. I hope Abaddon works out for you.

Looking at my list, I am still hurting for troops.

I think I will drop some terminators and beef up the Thousand Sons squad to 15 models again.

I will lose a reaper auto cannon, and some durablity, but I think it will be for the best in the long run. Now that I have Abaddon, he can carry some of the counter-assault duties.

If possible, could you do a battle report from this list blackmoor?

Its not to insult you or anything i just wonder how effective this list would be.

This list basically has Chaos Marines running as Space Marines which IMO doesnt work well. Reasons being chaos is an expensive shooty army. Tsons are expensive and very slow. A lascannon costs 20 points instead of 10.

To me this list is shooty with a few counter assault measures in place. Mainly Abaddon, the terminators, and the Sorcerer, kinda. The problem is i see this list being outclassed by specific armies. True assault lists such as Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos Daemons will be too close to fast. True shooty armies such as Tau or IG will have more fire and better weapons.

And then coupled with the fact so many cover saves are now given shooting with small but strong volumes of fire isnt very effective.

So overall i would just like to see how this plays out.

Arihman is basically reduced to a Triple Gift platform.
_______________
Failbbadon.../shrug. Just get him into combat...which by the looks of it is slogging, which is not ideal, but with lash around I guess it's ok...sort of a deterrant for some to get close to the squad he has joined.

Sorc is flexible, but you pay through the nose for it. While the steed status...what model do you have for it???A conversion?

Termies are there as a slogging force, which is cool, though PBS might suck bad for them.

TS are meh, seems low on scoring bodies...esp. if they are not riding metal boxes.

CSM are meh. As lascannon platforms they seem...sad. Not even a plasma gun to relive the old Las/Plas squad...only more dudes and more expensive?

I find the 9 oblits kinda boring. There is a shock value to them, but I don't think it lasts too long.

Well, I just finished up.

After goin 3-0 I ended up facing a Dark Eldar army with 21 dark lances.

I tried to make a game out of it, but it was dawn of war with me going second.

I was doing ok until turn #3 where I failed 10, 4+ saves
in a row, and I lost the will to win and ended up being tabled in turn #5.

Who won overall?

Thats a pretty durable marine list. The lack of heavy armor would certainly be a surprise for me.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Who won overall?

Thats a pretty durable marine list. The lack of heavy armor would certainly be a surprise for me.

1st place went to mech guard (no FW stuff). 2nd place went to CSM (no FW stuff, with something like 5 units of Lesser daemons and Possessed).

@Janthkin;
And by your special mention of Lesser Daemons and possessed, it seems you were suprised... .

Sanctjud wrote:@Janthkin;
And by your special mention of Lesser Daemons and possessed, it seems you were suprised... .

Oh, I wasn't anywhere near those tables. But the idea that someone could use *Possessed* and do that well in the Gladiator (especially after all of the "buy the win with FW" complaints that cropped up this year) deserved special mention.

Glad to see you were doing so well up until then Blackmoor. Dark Eldar are nasty. I think with the 5th edition vehicle rules they became much more effective. If the models were more up-to-date, weren't mail order only in most places, and weren't an old codex, we'd see tons more of them. Sounds like 'diametrically' opposed armies met and you faced an uphill battle.

Oh, I wasn't anywhere near those tables. But the idea that someone could use *Possessed* and do that well in the Gladiator (especially after all of the "buy the win with FW" complaints that cropped up this year) deserved special mention.

Yea, I dislike apoc games and in general anything above 1500-1850 range just gets too wonky for my taste. Also, since prices have risen so much in the past 10 years, it's hard to ignore the fact that it's cost prohibitive for some people (especially army dependent) to play at those point levels competitively.