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I used to like to take the good old Jump Pack marines and have had some few small successes with them but in the main I find that they
die very quickly and easily and are very easy to deploy badly.

Even with 12" movement they are to slow to reach most armies before dying
and even then with 3 attacks and 3+ armour save they dont seem that good in combat against other races and die quickly.

Am I doing something wrong - I've heard that Storm boys are even worse.

What is the deal, for the same poitns as 10 men I can get 2 MM landspeeders and a heavy bolter speeder that would deal far more damage and probably survive longer.

Does anyone use them and how.
Also are landspeeders any good?

Lord Kas wrote:I used to like to take the good old Jump Pack marines and have had some few small successes with them but in the main I find that they
die very quickly and easily and are very easy to deploy badly.

Even with 12" movement they are to slow to reach most armies before dying
and even then with 3 attacks and 3+ armour save they dont seem that good in combat against other races and die quickly.

Am I doing something wrong - I've heard that Storm boys are even worse.

What is the deal, for the same poitns as 10 men I can get 2 MM landspeeders and a heavy bolter speeder that would deal far more damage and probably survive longer.

Does anyone use them and how.
Also are landspeeders any good?

Actually, Stormboyz are significantly better. They move faster and get 4 attacks each instead of 3 on the charge, as well as being half the price and letting you take a squad of 20.

A few things

1) use cover, they can jump over buildings etc so move then behind it to limit the amount of fire they take.

2) Rhinos/LR are your friend, basically I always take 1 rhino in a JP heavy army as it gives me movable cover for at least one turn. Move it to the front of your JP colum, turn it sideways and smoke.

3) My assault marines usually do well in close combat, make the most of the charge. I.e bring a chaplin and toss a PF on the sarge to give ya 3 PF hits on the charge.

But most of all, USE COVER! if there isnt none make sure ya run on the shooting phase to get into some. In a worse case senario land into cover a 1 in 6 chance for a wound vs a firing line.

As has been said, using cover is big.

Another point is that they're not a KILLER CC unit. A lot of their bad rep comes from people thinking that if they get them stuck into CC without getting shot up first, that's a win, and they should be rewarded with a crushing victory. Unfortunately, they're just not that unit. They're good at taking on stuff that doesn't want to be in CC, and they're good at going to get it. If you send them into stuff that's solid in CC, they won't win the fight, but if you keep them to go after softer backfield units, they do well.

Some might say that makes them "bad" or that you should use some other means of getting after the backfield units. I think they're a useful, relatively cheap unit that has mobility in a place SMs otherwise lack it.

I have used them in a lot of my lists, and while I don't swear by them by any means, I like what they bring to the SM list.

Use them with Shrike and they become nasty...especially if you go first. A first turn assault, and tons of ablative wounds for Shike make them a very tasty choice.

In BA, they are fantastic!

For any other list, I would siply leave them at home. There are usually better choices for those points.

You have to be really good at using cover and patient. It's better to move 3 inches and sit behind cover to set up a good attack than it is to move closer and get shot up. Also, if you aren't taking 10 then increase the squad to 10. Assault units are all about how many models you have in them as far as effectiveness. It is very rare to get into assault without losing 3 or 4 models. You need to be able to absorb those losses and still be effective. Don't beef up the assault squad with useless gear. No plasma pistols. You use them once or twice in a game and aren't worth the points you spend. A power weapon for the sgt. Add an independent character. A chaplain so you can reroll failed to hits is very important. Lastly, try to get your assault units so that they kill the enemy on your opponents turn. It's all good to destroy the enemy, but you want to do it on their turn so they can't shoot at you and you get to move, shoot and charge. Don't take more than one space marine assault squad. While they are great to use they cost too much to take 2 squads of 10 and still have points left over for other units. Well, I play games of 1k to 1500 usually. 2500 point games you can fit in two squads probably.

Another think you can do is put them in a Rhino with double flamers.

But, if you're keeping the packs on there, you can't be overly aggressive. Like all Marines they aren't spectacular at what they do.They are so average so you're not going to smash through combat specialists in a round, you'll destroy Guardsmen, Guardians, small squads of Orks, that sort of thing.

Assault marines are troops in the new Blood Angels Codex right? I'm definitely dusting off the 20 that I used to use in 4th. The problem with them in 5th is that with the new running rules and other stuff with fleet the Assualt Marines just aren't as fast any more. They are basicly a slightly faster tactical squad.

I used to run 20 in 2 squads with 2 plasma pistols each and a chaplain in one squad. If I ever run them again it'll be usign the Blood Angels codex using 2 Assault squads with jump packs, 2 Assault squads in transports (rhino and crusader if thats allowed), and save all the fast attack slots for my 4 Land Speeders. Now that they're scoring and will have furious charge their effectiveness is way up and they can be used much more tactically (they can sit on an objective and dissuade the enemy from engaging etc.)

I agree that Assault Marines are difficult to use at first because of the overwhelming urge to fly straight towards your closest opponent and smash into them. Also the cover of a given scenario affects their usefulness as well.

I tend to use them as a defensive unit. Keeping them out of line of sight near the middle of my line if possible and used to tie up any melee heavy armies while my shooty lists tear down the biggest threats.

I can't recall if this has been stated. Shoot the assault units. Assault the shooty units. Picking your target wisely is just as important as the rest.

Assault Marines are great, IMO.
I've beenusing a squad of 10 in all my lists lately. One flamer, one plasma pistol, and a powerfist. I know people hate the plasma pistol in this squad, but I like having it. It allows me one unsavable wound, or the chance to hit a transport if nothing else presents itself.

The biggest mistakes you can make with these guys are overestimating their durability, and thinking they are a close combat powerhouse.
Even with a 4+ cover save, if your opponent wants them dead in the shooting phase, they're going to die. The only real way to protect them is by keeping them out of LOS. I like to use mine to creep up the board edges, where they're less likely to be noticed, or at least out of range of some of the enemy's guns.
A full squad of 10 will not steamroll through a 10-man tactical squad. It'll be a three to four-turn slobberknocker that ties up both units for the game. But, you can use this to your advantage. Assault Marines are the perfect durable tarpit for your opponent's large, shooty units. Charge them into Lootaz, Long Fangs, Devastators, etc etc.
Power weapons are your greatest enemy in close combat, as you have no way to save your men from dying to them, except a combat shield on the sergeant, and you shouldn't be wasting points on one.

If you want to field lots of Assault Marines in the C:SM list, go for force multipliers.
Jump Pack Chaplains give that great reroll to hit, and Fearless. You'll do more damage on the charge, AND you won't be going anywhere til you're wiped out. Just remember to avoid power-weapon toting enemies.
Jump Pack Captains can take a relic blade, to put some extra punch in your bowl. S6 power weapon hits at I5? Yes, pelase. Tack on an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher that you can always fire alongside any other weapon. Remember to bring Artificer Armor, as well. It'll let you soak one save per round.
Shrike is the ultimate force multiplier for an Assault Marine list. Obviously. You gain Fleet with everyone in your army! That means you can move 12", run up to 6" more, and STILL charge 6". It eliminates a lot of your durability issues, since you can close with the enemy so much faster.

In Regular Marine lists, Assault Marines (with packs) are generally the only non-mech units on the table, meaning all the little guns have an easy choice regarding who to point at.

They are pretty terrible if just hucked into a list, especially since they'll generally lose fights against equivalent points of most other assault-oriented units.

BA can make them work due to taking a giant jump horde en masse.

Alerian wrote:Use them with Shrike and they become nasty...especially if you go first. A first turn assault, and tons of ablative wounds for Shike make them a very tasty choice.

This!

it should be noted that I run mine alongside a listt hat contains two full squads of scoring Bikers (Thanks, Bike Captain!), 8-strong with attached attack bikes. Then two Rhinos full of Tac Marines.

IMO, the biker list is supposed to work like water.
Assault Marines are not flexible and do not mesh well with a water list.

With bikers and tacs, yes you do need a combat presence, but AssMarines don't give you the type you need.

assault marines are a good close combat unit because they can pick their fights due to mobility.

they are especially good against T'au, guard and gunline eldar.


cover is essential to get them there in one piece, but in objective missions they are a useful distraction/throwaway suicide unit.

Speaking of vanilla Space Marines here...

Assault Marines are one of the worst choices in the entire codex.

They have two main problems:

1) Only the sergeant in the squad will seriously threaten most targets, and even he will still only kill about a marine a round. As a result, the other marines in the squad are basically ablative wounds, and Assault Marines are pretty expensive for ablative wounds.

2) They compete for Fast Attack choices with Land Speeders and Attack Bikes, both of which are very good units.

Fundamentally, marines that aren't carrying a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield aren't very good in assault. Giving tactical marines a chainsword and a jump pack does not make them good assault units.

Scout Bikers make better Assault Marines than Assault Marines do -- the main difference is the 4+ armor save, but that's mitigated by them being T5 and having a 3+ cover on demand from Turbo-Boosting. And they get Infiltrate and Scouts, which gives them first turn assaults, and they're only slightly more expensive. In both cases, you're only going to be able to hurt targets that are mediocre (or worse) in assault anyway, so you might as well take the assault setup that lets you get the low-hanging fruit earlier.

Speed is the assault marines special point. Moving 12 before assaulting is great. The chaplain and sgt with power weapon are the main hitters. The charge with rerolls to hit beef up the assault squads so that you can take down targets.

My Space wolves have them count mostly as wounds to remove while the leader with saga of the warrior kills 4 or 5 a turn. So I'm thinking of not taking them or of switching it out for a chaplain equivilent, rune priest I think it is. Don't underestimate the chance to reroll. That is where the squad gets their real power. So just make sure that you are the one who charges.

I don't get scout bikers on anything, so I can't speak for them, but for DA and SW a correctly outfit assault squad is the hitting power.

My guess is that you're using them wrong. In a 1,000 point list, my 5 man unit does a lot of damage. The key is to use them against units like devastators, rangers or tau pathfinders. Small, elite units not built for assault should lose quickly. You should not under any circumstances use assault marines against a close combat unit unless you're using them as a counter assault unit.

Yeah. What he said. I tried out my skyclaw assault pack with wolf lord against some kroot and hounds because I've never tried it before. They kicked my butt except for the wolf lord who did enough damage to get them to flee.

I know it take practice, timing and luck.

An assault unit took out kroot...and the point being?
If you are happy and giddy at taking out a mob of Kroot with a pretty much pure combat unit, I'm guessing you don't play much against Tau.

Even if they look the part, the Kroot are the really an upfront combat squad. They are for shooting/utility/disruption/ and clean up. They are not primarily combat units...they seem like it compared to kroot, but the WS/S of 4 and 2 A don't make up for the lack of save and the KILLER I3 (hounds help, but do not perform the other roles that kroot do well).

in fact a normal tactical squad has a good chance of taking kroot out by virtue of power armor.

kroot have no saves unless they have a shaper and then its only 6+

this means for every wound you get on them(a space marine wounds kroot on a 3+) you will get a dead kroot.

on the other hand, kroot have to get 3 wounds to kill a space marine. a kroot has 3 attacks on the charge and WS4.

so a kroot has 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 wound. this means a you need 2 kroot to kill 1 space marine reliably.

12 kroot vs 10 space marines

kroot charge the space marines.

marines go first, 12 attacks(9 for marines, sergeant has a CCW and pistol) WS4 vs WS4 = 6 hits. Str4 vs T3 = 4 wounds = 4 dead kroot.

8 kroot go next, 24 attacks, WS4 vs WS4 = 12 hits. Str4 vs T4 = 6 wounds. 6 armor saves, 4 pass = 2 dead marines.

Kroot take Ld test at -2. 60% chance of fail and Sweeping advance.


this tells us that it takes 6 Charging kroot to kill a space marine. a 2.625 to one ratio of points effectivness. it takes 42 points of kroot to kill 16 points of marines. not a good starting ratio.

lets add 2 kroot hounds to the above scenario.

Kroot charge, kroot hounds go first. 6 attacks at WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits. 3 hits Str4 vs T4 = 1.5 wounds. 1.5 wounds = 1 save = .5 dead marine.

marines go next. 11 attacks(assuming the hounds actually killed something) 5.5 hit, 4 wound = 4 dead kroot

8 kroot go next, 24 attacks, WS4 vs WS4 = 12 hits. Str4 vs T4 = 6 wounds. 6 armor saves, 4 pass = 2 dead marines.

Kroot take Ld test at -1. 45% chance of fail and Sweeping advance.

points effectivness is now 32 points of kroot to kill 16 points of space marines, still terrible



my point is that it takes nearly 3 times as many points of kroot to kill a space marine.

Yep, that's why shooting is so much more healthier.
Shooting at 24" then double tap for 12 kroot is 36 shots which yields around 3 dead marines, better than swept Kroot .

but if you are just going to shoot then FWs are better for the cost as they at least have a decent armor save and a much better gun.

Kroot will have 4+ cover or 3+ cover from trees.
They will have a bit worse gun, but trade that for being 3 points cheaper and gain infiltrate/fieldcraft.

IMO, huge fething deal that makes Kroot more useful than fire warriors.

As I see it, some competitive builds would rather not have to purchase fire warriors, but must because they are forced to...

He'd never tried them against me and I wanted to try out his kroot in CC. Won, but more because of a few good rolls than having a good squad. Won the game, but know not to try that again, and pointed out how weak the average skyclaw was for me. Will try bikers next time.

Assault marines are a terrible choice for most marine lists.

Attack bikes are just so much better in FA and for the cost.

In addition, they dont have enough oomph to be effective against anything other than a poor cc enemy squad. Like Tau. But then again, even a tac squad could roll tau.

They are not a cc specialist like other armies can take and you should not use them as such. If you can keep that in mind, you may have a bit more success, but I dont think assault marines should make it into a competitive balanced all-comers list.

yeesh lots of anti Assault Marine chatter in here, they are far from the worst section in the SM codex(even if the do take up a Speeder Slot). it just depends on how you play them, to be honest I have had great success in using a small five man squad, normally such a small unit is ignored until its too late and has jumped its way into assault range(though the collection of rhinos and a Dread seem to draw more attention from the small 5 man squad darting about). though recently I have found a new niche for them in my current vulkan list, seeing as I had a need to fill up two drop pods, I took two full squads(TH/SS, 2x Flamers, 10 bodies) and put them in the Pods, letting vulkan and a Lib ride with them. first game with them at 1500pts I was able to force a tie with a IG Swarm List(the one with the out flanking Blob of 40+ bodies). due to bad placement, one squad was eaten but the other(with the lib) went on to cause havoc through out his back field all game long.

so if your going to field them in big mobs with jump jets, as others have said hide them behind moving pill boxes, or deep strike them in. though if you want a more flexible unit drop the jets and give them a Pod, in this way they can dropped in where they are needed with low risk to scattering into doom. don't use them as a hammer unit, use them as a harassing unit, something that goes into the enemies back field, and with a drop pod, even with 10 guys you should be able to get cover on at least one side. though this is just my opinion, and what I have seen in the few games I have taken them.

I like them, especially if they have flamers. A group of 10 is great with 2 flamers and a sergeant with a power fist+SS.
They are simply overlooked due to the fact that they take up a slot used by a quick vehicle, and two types of bikes. While they may be overpriced, they still are great against horde armies, as well as gun line armies. All they need to do is make sure to stay in cover until they're in range. You also should Deepstrike them into the enemy's support units, causing mass-havoc and hysteria behind their front lines, literally being the straw that broke the camels back. Without support, their front-line soldiers will be hammered harder than before. You then simply need to attack their weaker units that are farther back. However, some may ask the following question: "Why Deepstrike? They won't be able to assault!" If you deepstrike near their weaker support units, then you simply need to toast them. Thank you for considering my opinion.