Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay I'm a little unclear if what I have been told is correct. A guy at our store is taking a unit of phiranas ranging anywhere from 3-5 all with Flechette dischargers. Now when I charged in he asked me how many models were in my squad, I responeded 12 as it was a Trukk Boy squad. He then tells me that each one of my boyz must now take 5 hits from his Flechette dischargers as they are attacking models attacking his vehicle, making specific not that he is rolling against the nob first. I ask him how he is targeting specificly my nob and he replies that since Flechette dischargers affects models that it goes against all models specificly and he then rolls the five dice. Now here are the things I'm unsure about. 1) Can he specificly attack my models or are all wounds added up and then allocated by me? 2) Since me nob nor any boy can be in base to base with all five am I still hit by all five Flechette dischargers?

arinnoor wrote:Okay I'm a little unclear if what I have been told is correct. A guy at our store is taking a unit of phiranas ranging anywhere from 3-5 all with Flechette dischargers. Now when I charged in he asked me how many models were in my squad, I responeded 12 as it was a Trukk Boy squad. He then tells me that each one of my boyz must now take 5 hits from his Flechette dischargers as they are attacking models attacking his vehicle, making specific not that he is rolling against the nob first. I ask him how he is targeting specificly my nob and he replies that since Flechette dischargers affects models that it goes against all models specificly and he then rolls the five dice. Now here are the things I'm unsure about. 1) Can he specificly attack my models or are all wounds added up and then allocated by me? 2) Since me nob nor any boy can be in base to base with all five am I still hit by all five Flechette dischargers?

It's a relic from 4th edition. In 4th, individual models attacked individual members of squadrons, so only 1 member of the squadron could use their Flechettes against an attacking model. Now that it is Squad to Squad, he is technically right in doing this.

It's a bit of a dick move, but it's the rules.

Okay so he is doing everything right by this, just wanted to make sure as it seamed pretty good for the 5, 10, or so points for the upgrade. Oh well Lootas away I guess?

arinnoor wrote:Okay so he is doing everything right by this, just wanted to make sure as it seamed pretty good for the 5, 10, or so points for the upgrade. Oh well Lootas away I guess?

Yup. A Squad of Lootas will Chew up the 'Ranas in an instant

It's a bit of a dick move, but it's the rules.

Why is "playing by the rules" a dick move? Don't you always claim not "playing by the rules" to be the dick move?

He doesn't get to "roll for your Nob", as you put it. He rolls for the whole group, and you allocate wounds as normal.

FlingitNow wrote:

It's a bit of a dick move, but it's the rules.

Why is "playing by the rules" a dick move? Don't you always claim not "playing by the rules" to be the dick move?

It's a "bit" of a dick move because it exploits edition changes. Did I not also say he has every right to do so?

Lorek wrote:He doesn't get to "roll for your Nob", as you put it. He rolls for the whole group, and you allocate wounds as normal.

No. The rules only refer to specific models, not squads. Also there is no "following the rules for shooting/allocating attacks".
As each model is subjected to a number of wound-attempts, they all have to be rolled separately. Otherwise you can have a model not being wounded by "his" clutch of wounds, only to be killed by spill over from another model.

Yes, this is can be a rather long process, but its the rules.

not a direct quote but 'when a FD vehicle is attacked roll to wound each attacking model' where it should say iflicts would = to or even for each attacking model. *True Fluff Now* but I can belive that it's meant to work the more specific way as it's FD shooting you in the face.

ChrisCP wrote:not a direct quote but 'when a FD vehicle is attacked roll to wound each attacking model' where it should say iflicts would = to or even for each attacking model. *True Fluff Now* but I can belive that it's meant to work the more specific way as it's FD shooting you in the face.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I value your input, so can you elaborate a bit?

Yeah as is for 30 Orks you'd have to pick up those 5 dice and roll them 30 times.

Ignore, question was answered.

Seems a bit off that the whole squadren should be allowed to fire FD if they aren't all being assaulted.

Oh well hope my mate doesn't realise this!

Anybody got the page where it says 5 attacks each from the FD?

In the Tau Codex and couldn't see anything but "any model attacking the vehicle in close combat will be wounded on a D6 roll of 4+ with saves allowed"

You're not getting 5 attacks each you're getting one roll of 4+ to wound per FD as per the Tau codex. 5 Piranhas all with FD would mean each model is rolled for 5 times once for each flechette there is no reason to not roll these 5 together especially as you already have to roll for each of the 30 boyz individually.

Yeah worked that out after learning how to read.

except you only get the effects of 1 flechette launcher, even if theres more than 1 in the squadron. So no, no rolling 5 dice per boy, the benefit of taking multiples is redundancy.

kill dem stunties wrote:except you only get the effects of 1 flechette launcher, even if theres more than 1 in the squadron. So no, no rolling 5 dice per boy, the benefit of taking multiples is redundancy.

What justification is there to this claim? If there is 3 vehicles and your assaulting those 3 vehicles why would you gain the benefit of all 3?

Mr-_-Flidd wrote:Ignore, question was answered.

Seems a bit off that the whole squadren should be allowed to fire FD if they aren't all being assaulted.

Oh well hope my mate doesn't realise this!

Keep in mind that all members of the squadron can be "hurt", even if only one vehicle is actually assaulted.
I think it is rather fair.

It makes each Phirana pretty expensive, a full squad of five (with FD and FB) is 375. 375 for five open topped skimmers who has armor 11 and lower. So yeah I'd have to say that is fair. The combo was merly a big surprise to me.

exactly, if i only have my models come into base contact with 1 of the 5 piranhas, then only that piranha gets to pop its flechettes, though damage results will pile onto unengaged vehicles as per squadron rules.

kill dem stunties wrote:exactly, if i only have my models come into base contact with 1 of the 5 piranhas, then only that piranha gets to pop its flechettes, though damage results will pile onto unengaged vehicles as per squadron rules.

wrong due to how a squad works.

Or not ... just because theyre taking damage results doesnt mean they were being attacked, only the models i become engaged with are being "attacked" for the purposed of Flechettes.

How about a rules quote to support your position.

kill dem stunties wrote:Or not ... just because theyre taking damage results doesnt mean they were being attacked, only the models i become engaged with are being "attacked" for the purposed of Flechettes.

Unfortuantely, this is wrong.

In 5th, you attack the entire squadron, and all glances/pens are spread across the entire unit. This means that every model in the squadron is attacked, and as such, they all get to use their Flechette Dischargers.

Alerian wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Or not ... just because theyre taking damage results doesnt mean they were being attacked, only the models i become engaged with are being "attacked" for the purposed of Flechettes.

Unfortuantely, this is wrong.

In 5th, you attack the entire squadron, and all glances/pens are spread across the entire unit. This means that every model in the squadron is attacked, and as such, they all get to use their Flechette Dischargers.

Unfortunately, inat faq disagrees with you so most tourneys will rule with inat.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:

Alerian wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Or not ... just because theyre taking damage results doesnt mean they were being attacked, only the models i become engaged with are being "attacked" for the purposed of Flechettes.

Unfortuantely, this is wrong.

In 5th, you attack the entire squadron, and all glances/pens are spread across the entire unit. This means that every model in the squadron is attacked, and as such, they all get to use their Flechette Dischargers.

Unfortunately, inat faq disagrees with you so most tourneys will rule with inat.

The INAT FAQ also says changing how Wolf Claws work completely is a "Clarification". The INAT FAQ is not RaW. RaW, Alerian is 100% correct.

Gwar! wrote:

mon-keigh slayer wrote:

Alerian wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Or not ... just because theyre taking damage results doesnt mean they were being attacked, only the models i become engaged with are being "attacked" for the purposed of Flechettes.

Unfortuantely, this is wrong.

In 5th, you attack the entire squadron, and all glances/pens are spread across the entire unit. This means that every model in the squadron is attacked, and as such, they all get to use their Flechette Dischargers.

Unfortunately, inat faq disagrees with you so most tourneys will rule with inat.

The INAT FAQ also says changing how Wolf Claws work completely is a "Clarification". The INAT FAQ is not RaW. RaW, Alerian is 100% correct.

To be fair mon didn't say it was RAW, just that most tourneys will rule differently since they use INAT (whether most tourneys do use it or not I don't know though).

mon-keigh slayer wrote:

Alerian wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Or not ... just because theyre taking damage results doesnt mean they were being attacked, only the models i become engaged with are being "attacked" for the purposed of Flechettes.

Unfortuantely, this is wrong.

In 5th, you attack the entire squadron, and all glances/pens are spread across the entire unit. This means that every model in the squadron is attacked, and as such, they all get to use their Flechette Dischargers.

Unfortunately, inat faq disagrees with you so most tourneys will rule with inat.

This forum isn't called Let's Ask INAT! INAT is written so that it makes a ruling-any ruling, as long as games can be played. This forum's purpose is to find out what the rules actually say and mean.

This forum's purpose is to find out what the rules actually say and mean.

I'd argue it is to work out what the rules are or how they are most commonly played and that could be entirely different to what they say.

It is entirely legitimate to tell someone who's posted a rules question what the RaW is but it is also entirely legitimate to tell them of a common ruling that is used by may players and TOs like the INAT (Or just some other ruling that most people use) so that the player knows what the RaW is and/or how he's expected to play.

Otherwise he might devise a list utilising a rule that is broken and that everyone ignores and take it down to his FLGS or a Tournament and get told that is not how the rule works (i.e. he might be trying to use the Swarmlord's infinite Paroxysm or a list of super spore mines of repeated explosion doom).

Actually the forum's purpose is ultimately to move beyond the bare rules and see what actually works on the tabletop.

Examining the RAW is a necessary step, and has to be tempered with practicality and fairness.

By RAW all the flechette equipped vehicles in the squadron are attacked, and shoot off their dischargers.

The extent to which players think this is fair in a real game depends partly on whether they are the Tau or the Orks.

The INAT takes the view that the effect of flechettes is excessive when played by RAW. An alternative view is that this is just God's way of telling Orks not to assault Piranhas, and to shoot them instead.

It is a situation which GW brought about by the changes to the rules which made all the assaulters attack all the vehicles whether they are in contact or not. As was said though, the Piranhas are rather light vehicles and can fairly easily be wiped out by an assault if they don't get to use their flechettes.

As a reasonable compromise, the assault vs squadrons rule could be dropped, so that individual vehicles are attacked by individual attackers. That complicates the game, which GW and most players are moving away from.

There isn't a good solution.