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I've been considering trying an IG list which has only infantry and LR's. The idea is to keep a reasonable number of templates but minimize the number of vulnerable (ie less than AV 14 ) vehicles and maximize the infantry threat saturation.

Mech guard seems to really popular atm, but I prefer a more infantry-centric approach. I've built several lists with only modest mech support (ie heavy support and command chimeras only) but that seems like it might be the worst of both worlds.

Do people think an infantry/AV 14 list would be a viable approach?

i think it Could be doable. and fun if done right.
i'm still stuck in the Mech IG at the moment.
my biggest issue would be having to squadron anything over 3 Russes.

I think its definitely doable.

I would think 5 russes and 100 guys as pretty effective. I say 5 russes because you could probably get away with putting two like Russes in squadrons and then a lone russ. IG units can then cover any problems that your tanks have issues with dealing with, plus you can effectively bubble wrap your tanks, protecting them from their biggest problem, dead hard close combat units or melta death.

2 Extermintors or battle tanks w/ plasma sponsons
2 Eradicators w/ heavy bolters
Executioner

A few combined squads with lascannons/autocannons/Commissars
couple CCS

I would think that would be a great start to a list. Taking objectives would be the difficult part, but if you roll a few PIS combined without havy weapons, maybe with Al'Rahem leading them, you could get there.... or just play to table/remove them from their objectives-hold your own/hunt their scoring units depending on the mission.

I was initially drawn to the guard way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, because of the mix of bad infantry and awesome tanks. Now that guard can get good infantry (mounted in chimeras) and awesome tanks the effectiveness of the army is so much better. I still run a platoon with some russes in friendly games, but now that I am more involved in competitive play its hard to justify that style of list because platoons cannot be counted on to kill anything reliably. The only viable strategy I have found is to use them as meatshields to keep melta guns from your leman russes. because there are so few long range anti tank weapons capable of taking out a leman russ, they will generally go unscathed until the enemy breaks through your infantry (or not if you kill them quickly enough)

OK, here's a shot at such a list at 1850 which I think I can mostly do out of units I already own.... Please let me know what you think!

CCS

PCS - GL; Lascannon
Comissar w/power weapon
3 x inf sqads (AC/melta; AC/plas; AC/plas)

PCS - GL; Lascannon
Comissar w/power weapon
3 x inf sqads (AC/melta; AC/plas; AC/plas)

PCS - GL; Lascannon
Comissar w/power weapon
3 x inf sqads (AC/melta; AC/plas; AC/plas)

8 Rough Riders (Melta bomb)

8 Rough Riders (Melta bomb)

2 x LR

LRD w/lascannon

LRD w/lascannon

I know the RR's are an odd choice, but I thought they might be good as counter attack units. The meltas are to discourage dreadnaughts and the like from approaching. I don't know how this force would take enemy objectives. I think that it's best bet would be a turn or two of shooting and then trying to advance as much as possible to contest enemy objectives. I don't know if it would work, but it captures my conception of the guard more than a lot of the current mech lists do. It might also have trouble with MC's. I might need to get an Executioner )I don't own one presently. Does it have a hope?

Looks cool, but why not make one squad all melta and the other two all plasma? Dedicate them to a certain role... I guess since they're on foot it'll be hard to make the melta squad effective...

Being on foot they won't be getting to choose their own targets much. I put the melta in just for self defense against walkers. With "fire on my target" even one melta can hit an enemy 75% of the time.

Check my lsit in the list section it's all Infantry and HWs along with a little Artillery. It can be very tough against many armies but if you play 1-2 armies ur in a world of hurt lol.

i'd put all the lascannons in one platoon.
i'd give the 3 meltas to a CCS or PCS. i think they fit poorly in the PIS.

Ok, how about this, for slightly more close combat potential... (again at 1850)

CCS - Straken, bodyguard

PCS - 2 melta
Comissar w/power weapon
3 x inf sqads (all AC/plas)

PCS - 2 melta
Comissar w/power weapon
3 x inf sqads (all AC/plas)

PCS - 2 melta
Comissar w/power weapon
3 x inf sqads (all AC/plas)

6 Rough Riders (Melta bomb)

6 Rough Riders (Melta bomb)

LR Executioner w/plasma sponsons

LRD w/lascannon

LRD w/lascannon

I think any halfway competent SM commander with 2 Land Raiders and 2 Whirlwinds is going to table you or come close to it.

Your massed infantry is very exposed to the templates of the Whirlwinds and you really can't do anything to stop them if there is any cover on the table. He could even choose to place the Whirlwinds directly behind the Land Raiders and just shell you for three turns. Then he advances and claims whatever he wants.

On the plus side, since most IG are really good at killing Land Raiders, you probablly won't see a two Land Raider build anymore.

I think any halfway competent SM commander with 2 Land Raiders and 2 Whirlwinds is going to table you or come close to it.

When I read '2 Land Raiders' I thought 'not a lot of people have 2 Land Raiders' but when I saw '2 Whirlwinds' I thought 'noone has any Whirlwinds' so I guess what you said about his weaknesses are only hypothetical.

Thought the same thing myself. Flamers would be a problem though, anyone with a fair few template weapons can actually deal with loads of guardsmen at once.

Therion wrote:

I think any halfway competent SM commander with 2 Land Raiders and 2 Whirlwinds is going to table you or come close to it.

When I read '2 Land Raiders' I thought 'not a lot of people have 2 Land Raiders' but when I saw '2 Whirlwinds' I thought 'noone has any Whirlwinds' so I guess what you said about his weaknesses are only hypothetical.

I also think he was way over predicting their effectiveness. A barrage fired without line of sight is going to scatter an average of 7" 2 out of 3 times. Even if he gets six on each hit and an average of two on each miss that's only 3/turn per whirlwind. With over 120 infantry that's not a lot.

I have wondered about this as well and came up with this:

CCS w/4 Melta's in Chimera w/Hull Hvy Flamer - 145pts

2x10 Vets, w/3 melta's in Chimera w/Hull hvy flamer - 310pts

this leaves 1045pts for various Leman Russ' I was thinking about doing 3 squads of 2, mixing the main battle tank with the plasma version and stuff like that.

How would that fair? or another option would be:

CCS w/2 Melta's in Chimera w/HHF - 125pts

3x10 Vets w/3 melta's and Chimera's w/HHF - 465pts

which would leave 910pts for tanks. You'd still have 3 scoring units which can hide behind a wall of AV 14, I just may have to try this and see if it works...

Thoughts??

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Thought the same thing myself. Flamers would be a problem though, anyone with a fair few template weapons can actually deal with loads of guardsmen at once.

This is a bigger problem IMHO. However, I don't think there's really anything that can be done about it, except to try to get as much firepower in the list as I can and kill the flamers before they close. For infantry flamers, the guard puts out a lot of firepower to 24" so they might not be able to close. Vehicles would have a better chance, but they'd probably only get one shot at it. Keep in mind that within 24" each formation generates 9 str 7 twin-linked shots (if the orders go off <9). I think the thing which would give me the most trouble is a large number of AV13 vehicles or deepstrikers loaded with flame weapons. Fortunately, meltas seem to be the flavor of the month for deepstrikers from what I've seen.

I'm just trying to find a decent 1850 point list for local tournaments which isn't mech guard. I don't think this would work at higher points due to problems with table density and extreme numbers of templates/rapid fire weapons. I want to get some opinions on whether this would work at all before I bother trying to get it together. I do actually already own seven Chimeras, so I could go that route if I wanted to...

Thanks for all the replies!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigh.... I'm rapidly getting depressed.

I really don't want to end up running all mech guard, yet more and more it seems that you are just gimping yourself if you don't. I am willing to gimp myself a bit to have an army that I think is fluffier, but I'm having a rough time trying to build one that is even close to as competitive as the all chimera/vendetta/melta army. If anyone has any good suggestions, I'd appreciate it. Among other things, what's the point in all my really well painted guard infantry if it is going to spend the entire game in a box!?!

Therion wrote:

I think any halfway competent SM commander with 2 Land Raiders and 2 Whirlwinds is going to table you or come close to it.

When I read '2 Land Raiders' I thought 'not a lot of people have 2 Land Raiders' but when I saw '2 Whirlwinds' I thought 'noone has any Whirlwinds' so I guess what you said about his weaknesses are only hypothetical.

I certainly agree that two Land Raiders in a list is hypothetical in my area, but I fought against a SM player with two Whirlwinds in a tournament last month. He beat me and won the tournament. Whirlwinds do scatter but when you have a lot of infantry, they tend to hit something. SM players also tend to run a lot of land speeders too and those kill infantry pretty well. My tourney opponent used three land speeders. Another player at the tourney had one Whirlwind so I guess my region just has more of the silly things than you have in your area. It may have something to do with Orc slugga boy hordes and two local Tyranid armies that are heavy on Termagaunts. Not everyone plays an all mech force around here. Folks tend to play what they have on hand or what they like rather than fielding the premium build for their codex. It makes it a little harder to craft a really good take-all-comers list because the range of builds at the monthly local tournaments varies more widely than the meta game builds used for 'Ard Boyz or big name tournaments.

I also wonder what two Manticores and two Hydras would do to all of that infantry. No one fields these vehicles in the local tournaments but I'm planning to make a few and try them out.

AaronG wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Thought the same thing myself. Flamers would be a problem though, anyone with a fair few template weapons can actually deal with loads of guardsmen at once.

This is a bigger problem IMHO. However, I don't think there's really anything that can be done about it, except to try to get as much firepower in the list as I can and kill the flamers before they close. For infantry flamers, the guard puts out a lot of firepower to 24" so they might not be able to close. Vehicles would have a better chance, but they'd probably only get one shot at it. Keep in mind that within 24" each formation generates 9 str 7 twin-linked shots (if the orders go off <9). I think the thing which would give me the most trouble is a large number of AV13 vehicles or deepstrikers loaded with flame weapons. Fortunately, meltas seem to be the flavor of the month for deepstrikers from what I've seen.

I'm just trying to find a decent 1850 point list for local tournaments which isn't mech guard. I don't think this would work at higher points due to problems with table density and extreme numbers of templates/rapid fire weapons. I want to get some opinions on whether this would work at all before I bother trying to get it together. I do actually already own seven Chimeras, so I could go that route if I wanted to...

Thanks for all the replies!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigh.... I'm rapidly getting depressed.

I really don't want to end up running all mech guard, yet more and more it seems that you are just gimping yourself if you don't. I am willing to gimp myself a bit to have an army that I think is fluffier, but I'm having a rough time trying to build one that is even close to as competitive as the all chimera/vendetta/melta army. If anyone has any good suggestions, I'd appreciate it. Among other things, what's the point in all my really well painted guard infantry if it is going to spend the entire game in a box!?!

well, go "light" mech. 3 Chimeras. 2 vets sqds to challenge for/take objectives. and a PCS with 4 flamers. or any combo there of. get 3 mobile PCS. keeps them a bit safer. and they can be a rapid reaction to deep strikers or line breaches, etc...

I think I will have to go the semi-mech route. I can't see much hope for the Foot/Tank version of my list. As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread I can sort of make myself like the list if I only use the Chimeras for command vehicles. That gives me 3-4 at 1850.

Here's one version of such a list. What do you think?

CCS 3 x plasma, MoO
Chimera (ML/HB)

PCS 4 meltas
Chimera (ML/HF)

3 x Squads (3 x GL/AC; 1 x PW)
Commissar (PW)


PCS 4 meltas
Chimera (ML/HF)

3 x Squads (3 x GL/AC; 1 x PW)
Commissar (PW)


PCS 4 meltas
Chimera (ML/HF)

2 x Squads (2 x GL/AC; 1 x PW)
Commissar (PW)

6x Rough Riders (melta bombs)

LRD (w/lascannon)

LRD (w/lascannon)

LRD (w/lascannon)

I'd swap the CCS' plasma with a PCS' meltas.

You might want to change "platoons" to "squads" under the PCS entries.

I like the Chimeras with ML/HF as well as the blob platoons with PW and a Commissar with PW.

I also like the Demolishers though I wonder if you can handle enemies with lots of AV 13/14 (SM and other IG armies).

I think I would combine all of the squads under two platoons and convert one of the PCS into a CCS for the extra orders and BS4.

I'm not a fan of the small unit of Rough Riders or the MoO.

JB wrote:You might want to change "platoons" to "squads" under the PCS entries.

Fixed.

JB wrote:I also like the Demolishers though I wonder if you can handle enemies with lots of AV 13/14 (SM and other IG armies).

Yeah, I don't know either. I can't think of any other way to make it better though unless I went with Medusas or Vendettas and they lack the staying power of the LRD. I'll just have to see if this works.

JB wrote:I think I would combine all of the squads under two platoons and convert one of the PCS into a CCS for the extra orders and BS4.

That might be a good idea. I am unsure if I want to lose the third PCS as a mobile scoring unit though. I'll have to see how it plays.

JB wrote:I'm not a fan of the small unit of Rough Riders or the MoO.

Mostly they're in there for fluff (the MoO since I have no on table arty, and the guard really should have on-call arty). Maybe I'll get rid of him to increase the RR's. The look on an opponents face when they forget the RR's can carry a melta and they've left their land raider in charge range can be priceless though! Also, I like having at least one countercharge capable unit available.