calidus assassin

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**olympia**

Using the ability to redeploy a unit can you take a unit out of a transport?

**Gwar!**

olympia wrote:Using the ability to redeploy a unit can you take a unit out of a transport?

No.

In order for a unit to disembark, it must have begun the movement phase embarked. Since there hasn't even been a movement phase yet, there is no way they can have begun the phase embarked.

**kartofelkopf**

I think that line of reasoning is seriously lacking a basis in the text of the rules...

The rule's text says you can "move one enemy unit up to 6"..." Given that there's no further clarification, any legal move the unit is eligible to make is fair game- in this case, since disembarking is done as part of movement, it is allowed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A more persuasive line of reasoning would be the one used against the DOM's ability affecting embarked units... but until GW clarifies that (I feel rather confident they'll disallow it affecting embarked units), special rules have been deemed by some (read: INAT) to affect embarked units.

**Gwar!**

kartofelkopf wrote:I think that line of reasoning is seriously lacking a basis in the text of the rules...

The rule's text says you can "move one enemy unit up to 6"..." Given that there's no further clarification, any legal move the unit is eligible to make is fair game- in this case, since disembarking is done as part of movement, it is allowed.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Disembarking is part of movement, but can only be done if the unit began it's movement phase embarked (read the Disembarking rules).

**kartofelkopf**

The rules specify that the unit may only VOLUNTARILY embark or disembark in the movement phase. The phrasing you reference is in place to reinforce the idea that you cannot embark and disembark in the same movement phase.

Your line of reasoning is roughly akin to saying that, since the Movement rules restrict infantry/vehicles to moving in the Movement phase (p11) that "A word in your ear..." doesn't function at all, as it occurs outside of the movement phase.

**calypso2ts**

AWIYE explicitly states what it does. Units may make a 'redeployment move' but the unit is not taking a redeployment 'movement phase.' Since you are not given explicit permission to disembark or embark into transports, you may not do so because you do not met the requirements to do so.

There are enough cool tricks with AWIYE that you do not need to pull units out of transports.

**kartofelkopf**

It's not "redeployment"- it is a MOVE. You may MOVE a unit up to 6".

If you can do it with a regular move, you can do it with AWIYE-- the only restriction is where they can end up and the facing.

**calypso2ts**

It is a special kind of move, in the WH FAQ they call it a 'redeployment move' in the codex it says the 'The player with the Callidus Assassin may move one enemy unit...'

The specifics on what this move means are left open ended. Therefore, assuming it follows the rules for normal movement then here is the specific rule for moving units out of transports...'A unit that begins its movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark...'

Do you meet the aforementioned condition? No, the unit did not begin the Movement phase aboard a vehicle, therefore the unit cannot disembark.

If you can show me where this rule is ignored in the specific Callidus assassin entry, then you can pull a unit out of the transport.

For the record, I support the argument that a Callidus assassin can force terrain checks during its 'redeployment move,' but this is only because I think it follows the rules for normal movement which in this case prevents removing units from transports.

**Gwar!**

kartofelkopf wrote:It's not "redeployment"- it is a MOVE. You may MOVE a unit up to 6".

If you can do it with a regular move, you can do it with AWIYE-- the only restriction is where they can end up and the facing.

So is a scout move, but you cannot disembark in that either, because the rules for disembarking state you must have begun the movement phase embarked.

**puma713**

kartofelkopf wrote:It's not "redeployment"- it is a MOVE. You may MOVE a unit up to 6".

If you can do it with a regular move, you can do it with AWIYE-- the only restriction is where they can end up and the facing.

To quote myself in nearly the same argument in an earlier thread:

puma713 wrote:I think where we're getting hung up is the definition of "move". While the two definitions we're using are similar, there are some distinct differences:

Your definition may look something like this (from Dictionary.com):

move /muv/ Show Spelled [moov] Show IPA verb,moved, mov·ing, noun
–noun
an act or instance of moving; movement.

So, the way that the passage would be read would be: "This redeployment movement (or instance of moving). . .etc."

Whereas my defintion reads:

move /muv/ Show Spelled [moov] Show IPA verb,moved, mov·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
to change from one place or position to another.

So, the way the passage reads to me would be: "This redeployment repositioning. . .etc."

You see, it's not the redeployment that we're stumbling on, its our difference in the definition of movement. Just because something has been moved, doesn't mean it has been committing the act of moving. It could simply mean that is has been repositioned or replaced, like if you picked up your keys in the living room and set them down in the kitchen. The keys didn't move themselves. You "moved" them - you "replaced" or "repositioned" them.

**jp400**

A: Is the squad in the transport a unit? Yes
B: Can you move any one unit up to six inches? Yes
C: Can units move in and out of a transport? Yes
D: ......
E: Profit!!!

Next turn, you move 6 inches, get back into transport and off you go.

**Gwar!**

jp400 wrote:A: Is the squad in the transport a unit? Yes
B: Can you move any one unit up to six inches? Yes
C: Can units move in and out of a transport? Yes
D: ......
E: Profit!!!

Next turn, you move 6 inches, get back into transport and off you go.

Except, ya know, this completely ignores the rules...

**jp400**

Gwar! wrote:
jp400 wrote:A: Is the squad in the transport a unit? Yes
B: Can you move any one unit up to six inches? Yes
C: Can units move in and out of a transport? Yes
D: ......
E: Profit!!!

Next turn, you move 6 inches, get back into transport and off you go.

Except, ya know, this completely ignores the rules...

Nope, this ignores YOUR interpretation on how the rules are.

**Gwar!**

jp400 wrote:Nope, this ignores YOUR interpretation on how the rules are.

No, it just ignores the rules. I already have shown that you need to start a movement phase embarked to disembark. What's your argument?

**jp400**

See, here is the best part. I can choose not to argue with you. Why? Cause you are just not worth it Gwar!

**Gorkamorka**

jp400 wrote:See, here is the best part. I can choose not to argue with you. Why? Cause you are just not worth it Gwar!

That doesn't change the fact that you are, quite simply, wrong.
The rules disagree with you, rather clearly. Plugging your ears is your prerogative, but don't expect everyone to play along.

**crazy beanz**

if you are redeploying the unit. Why would that count as moving. When I chose to deploy my guard I can deploy them in or out of the transport. Therefore if the entry says that I can redeploy the unit why wouldn't is be as if I deployed the unit on the table next to the transport? Maybe I am missing something simple here?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
also you are not disembarking because that is a move that takes place during the game. The game hasn't started in essence because you are still in the deployment phase, correct.

**jp400**

All I can say, is that ive been asked not to feed Gwar. So I wont.

Me, im going to sit back, relax, and play the game the way it was ment to be played...

And ill be moveing one enemy unit up to 6''.

Have a nice day.

**kartofelkopf**

Meh- both stances are arguing a different RAI stance. I've already pointed out that the movement rules place a restriction on voluntarily disembarking, and that the "start the movement phase" bit is designed to prevent transport hopping (i.e., move, embark, disembark, embark on another transport within 2", lather rinse repeat).

We can agree that AWIYE is a move.

We can agree that disembarking is done as part of a move action.

We can agree that disembarking could meet all the other requirements of AWIYE (i.e., within deployment zone, within 6", etc).

The split is over whether the "start the movement phase embarked" restriction on voluntary disembarkation applies to AWIYE.

So... done and done. Let's save ourselves 3 more pages and a lock and call it a day.

**puma713**

kartofelkopf wrote:Meh- both stances are arguing a different RAI stance. I've already pointed out that the movement rules place a restriction on voluntarily disembarking, and that the "start the movement phase" bit is designed to prevent transport hopping (i.e., move, embark, disembark, embark on another transport within 2", lather rinse repeat).

We can agree that AWIYE is a move.

No we can't. It is a repositioning. That does not denote movement. Read my above post.

kartofelkopf wrote:We can agree that disembarking is done as part of a move action.

We can agree that disembarking could meet all the other requirements of AWIYE (i.e., within deployment zone, within 6", etc).

And since AWIYE doesn't necessarily mean "movement", these above statements may or may not apply.

kartofelkopf wrote:

Let's save ourselves 3 more pages and a lock and call it a day.

At least we can agree on this.

**kartofelkopf**

puma713 wrote:
kartofelkopf wrote:Meh- both stances are arguing a different RAI stance. I've already pointed out that the movement rules place a restriction on voluntarily disembarking, and that the "start the movement phase" bit is designed to prevent transport hopping (i.e., move, embark, disembark, embark on another transport within 2", lather rinse repeat).

We can agree that AWIYE is a move.

No we can't. It is a repositioning. That does not denote movement. Read my above post.

"The player with the Callidus assassin can MOVE one enemy unit up to 6" after both sides have deployed, but before the first turn starts."

How is "move one ... unit" not a move?

The word "move" has a pretty specific definition in the rulebook, and refers to "normal" movement done in the movement phase. "Assault moves" and "run moves" and "consolidate moves" are specific types of rules with some of their own exceptions/restrictions. But, when the word "move" is used by itself, without any other context, it is NOT one of those 'special' types of move... it's just a normal old move, and follows the same rules as normal movement, save, in this case, for the fact the opponent is controlling the unit.

**puma713**

kartofelkopf wrote:
puma713 wrote:
kartofelkopf wrote:Meh- both stances are arguing a different RAI stance. I've already pointed out that the movement rules place a restriction on voluntarily disembarking, and that the "start the movement phase" bit is designed to prevent transport hopping (i.e., move, embark, disembark, embark on another transport within 2", lather rinse repeat).

We can agree that AWIYE is a move.

No we can't. It is a repositioning. That does not denote movement. Read my above post.

"The player with the Callidus assassin can MOVE one enemy unit up to 6" after both sides have deployed, but before the first turn starts."

How is "move one ... unit" not a move?

The word "move" has a pretty specific definition in the rulebook, and refers to "normal" movement done in the movement phase. "Assault moves" and "run moves" and "consolidate moves" are specific types of rules with some of their own exceptions/restrictions. But, when the word "move" is used by itself, without any other context, it is NOT one of those 'special' types of move... it's just a normal old move, and follows the same rules as normal movement, save, in this case, for the fact the opponent is controlling the unit.

Except for the fact it doesn't say that it is just a move. It is called a "redeployment" move (per GW FAQ, where it is coined a "redeployment move"). And, since you refuse to read my prior post, here it is again:

puma713 wrote:I think where we're getting hung up is the definition of "move". While the two definitions we're using are similar, there are some distinct differences:

Your definition may look something like this (from Dictionary.com):

move /muv/ Show Spelled [moov] Show IPA verb,moved, mov·ing, noun
–noun
an act or instance of moving; movement.

So, the way that the passage would be read would be: "This redeployment movement (or instance of moving). . .etc."

Whereas my defintion reads:

move /muv/ Show Spelled [moov] Show IPA verb,moved, mov·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
to change from one place or position to another.

So, the way the passage reads to me would be: "This redeployment repositioning. . .etc."

You see, it's not the redeployment that we're stumbling on, its our difference in the definition of movement. Just because something has been moved, doesn't mean it has been committing the act of moving. It could simply mean that is has been repositioned or replaced, like if you picked up your keys in the living room and set them down in the kitchen. The keys didn't move themselves. You "moved" them - you "replaced" or "repositioned" them.

**insaniak**

puma713 wrote:Except for the fact it doesn't say that it is just a move. It is called a "redeployment" move (per GW FAQ, where it is coined a "redeployment move"). And, since you refuse to read my prior post, here it is again:

Contrary to popular belief, just repeating yourself rarely works.

I think everyone understands the meaning of the word 'move'... The dictionary definition was unnecessary the first time, and certainly didn't need repeating. I would recommend having a look at the Tenets of YMDC thread regarding dictionary definitions in rules discussions.

Meanwhile, this thread is not going anywhere productive... Both sides are convinced that they are right, which generally puts us into 'sort it out with your opponent' territory. Time to give it a rest, methinks.