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Ok so I am trying to work on my Ard' Boyz list and have pretty much decided to take the Inquisitor ally to give me +1 to go first. I am playing Lazerback/Fang spam so with an Alpha Strike like I have going first is a big bonus. I have done the rolling on it (over 600 practice rolls) and found the following.

With no adjustments to roll:

Big surprise here, 55/45 and 59/41 in my two sets of 100. Basically 50/50 to go first.

With +1 to roll:

Makes a pretty big difference, 69/31 and 73/27. Basically 70% chance to go first.

With +1 AND Reroll:

Here is where the issue arose.

- When two people tie on a dice roll is it required that they both take the reroll? Or in other words is the other person entitled to the reroll because of the tie? For instance if I roll a 1+1 and you roll a 2 we have tied, but I want to go ahead and use Bjorns reroll and have you keep the roll since you rolled so low. Is this ok? On the other side of the coin if I roll a 5+1 and you roll a 6 could I allow us both the reroll because we tied, and then if you win or we tie again with a low number, take Bjorns reroll then?

I am asking because if the reroll is allowed to be manipulated by me in the way I mentioned then the chance with Bjorn+Inq is around 85-86%. Without it the chance is around 80%, and while that seems small it is just enough to put me on the fence about whether I want to try and use Bjorn in the list or not. I am sacrificing some more shooting by including him, but he offers a CC element my list lacks and I am also wondering how his being an extra objective if killed will work in a king of the hill type scenario. So there is some upside to him, and the reroll thing would just be one more chip in his basket.

I know this is an odd question and probably going to come down to differing opinions on how it works, but I was just wondering how you Dakkaites would play it.

Kaotik wrote:Ok so I am trying to work on my Ard' Boyz list and have pretty much decided to take the Inquisitor ally to give me +1 to go first. I am playing Lazerback/Fang spam so with an Alpha Strike like I have going first is a big bonus. I have done the rolling on it (over 600 practice rolls) and found the following.

With no adjustments to roll:

Big surprise here, 55/45 and 59/41 in my two sets of 100. Basically 50/50 to go first.

With +1 to roll:

Makes a pretty big difference, 69/31 and 73/27. Basically 70% chance to go first.

With +1 AND Reroll:

Here is where the issue arose.

- When two people tie on a dice roll is it required that they both take the reroll? Or in other words is the other person entitled to the reroll because of the tie? For instance if I roll a 1+1 and you roll a 2 we have tied, but I want to go ahead and use Bjorns reroll and have you keep the roll since you rolled so low. Is this ok? On the other side of the coin if I roll a 5+1 and you roll a 6 could I allow us both the reroll because we tied, and then if you win or we tie again with a low number, take Bjorns reroll then?

I am asking because if the reroll is allowed to be manipulated by me in the way I mentioned then the chance with Bjorn+Inq is around 85-86%. Without it the chance is around 80%, and while that seems small it is just enough to put me on the fence about whether I want to try and use Bjorn in the list or not. I am sacrificing some more shooting by including him, but he offers a CC element my list lacks and I am also wondering how his being an extra objective if killed will work in a king of the hill type scenario. So there is some upside to him, and the reroll thing would just be one more chip in his basket.

I know this is an odd question and probably going to come down to differing opinions on how it works, but I was just wondering how you Dakkaites would play it.

You can choose to re-roll first, and then if this is a Tie, you both re-roll, as the rules for a "Roll Off" (which the roll to see who goes first is) says you must.

Glad Gwar answered that one because trying to decide the answer to that one was giving me a headache...

Yeah - your abiltiy to reroll is in advance of the tie "roll the dice again" (which is NOT a reroll!) requirement. In essence until you reroll there isnt a tie. Same as with Gets Hot! on a twin linked plasma gun - if you roll a "1" on your first roll "Gets Hot!" is not triggered - until you finalise the roll.

Good news? If you keep tying you can keep rerolling, as each time you rol the dice for first turn (together) it is an entirely seperate dice roll, and the "cant reroll a reroll" does not apply.

Just as long as you arent taking a runepriest with Storm Caller thinking it will cover vehicles with a usable save, you're all good. Unless this is another rules change by INAT?

Gwar: I can chose to reroll first? I am not following you there. You mean I can chose to reroll the first time we tie and then if we tie again we both reroll?

I read the rules and it seems like if we tie then there HAS to be a roll off, but if I chose to take my reroll at that point we did not tie unless as you said I rolled another tie.

I know it is confusing, but the question is basically can I chose to take that reroll whenever I want in the sequence of rolls to go first given there was a tie involved.

Reading this it makes no more sense than before.
Sorry =(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Just as long as you arent taking a runepriest with Storm Caller thinking it will cover vehicles with a usable save, you're all good. Unless this is another rules change by INAT?

Yes I am taking 2-3 Rune Priests in the list, and I am fully aware that some people think it does not work on vehicles and some do. I have read the posts here and plan to continue to stay out of it. I personally hope since BA and SW both have similar powers it will be made 100% clear before Ard' Boyz. Although I doubt they will do it, (much like defrollas changing round to round last year), but I will play it however they call it at the tournament. Locally they have been playing that it does work due to the INAT wording chance, but that will vary from FLGS to FLGS I am sure. I am only going to have one of them with Storm Caller so it won't matter too much either way to me how they rule it.

Thanks for the answer on this though.

1) the "pick the dice up and roll again" when you tie is *not* a reroll - this is important, as otherwise you couldnt keep on going.

2) your ability to reroll the dice whenever you want means your initial dice roll is not fixed - it is not resolved until you either reroll or declare you are happy with the result.

This means you can reroll at ANY point - and you dont determine if there is a tie until *after* you decide to use the reroll or not. Your dice roll is not fixed until that point, which means you cannot determine if there is a tie.

As I said: when you have a TL Plasma Gun, if you roll a "1" on your first roll you have NOT triggered Gets Hot! until *after* you choose to reroll (or, stupidly!) decide to keep the roll. At THIS point in time the dice roll is fixed, and you can check the result.

Finally: EACH time you pick the dice up and roll again (in the case of a tie) this is a *fresh* roll, meaning the reroll can be used each time you pick the dice up and roll again - so if you get a tie *after* your reroll you pick the dice up, roll "fresh" dice, and you have your reroll abilty again. This is a consequence of the way rolling for first turn is determined - it is not a reroll at any point, it is a fresh roll.

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking that was what you meant in your third point there about being able to reuse the reroll.

SO basically is works exactly as I said with the added bonus of every time we tie it is a new roll and thus resets the reroll on the dice. While I get your point I will have to find out if there is a way to clarify that before the tournament starts. If it works as you say then the chance goes up by a few more % and I will have to seriously consider working him into the list.

-mispost-

Look up the definition of "Roll-offs", which is what is used in each standard mission to determine who goes first.

In this it states that "in the case of a tie, the dice are picked up adn rolled again"

This is NOT a reroll, otherwise you couldnt roll more than twice to determien who goes first!

Ya me and some friends locally were discussing this and we thought that either:

A. NO REROLL rule did not apply to this roll only. Otherwise if you tie you could not play the game.

B. Each "Roll Off" is an entirely new roll.

It did not occur to me then that this would mean if it was B then as you said I can reroll the dice during each "Roll Off"

I really think with the wording used that when I ask the TO it is going to have to work like you are saying.

Just point out the page where "roll off" is defined entirely differently to "Re-roll" - they are even in the same boxout to help you!

Ya I went to grab my little rulebook out of the car once you posted to check the wording in there(I am at work atm). When I went to get it I found out that it was lost/picked up by someone at the tournament we had here last weekend. I am going to look in the hardback when I get home.

Again thanks for your input on this.