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Initial Email...

Hey GW crew.

I really want to put together a Nid army since buying the Codex but I can’t until I see an FAQ.

Hive Commander gives you a +1 to reserve roll bonus’s. Being a complete DS army I want to hold him in reserve to. Now, the Hive Commander +1 bonus rule is written that this ability is granted while the Hive Tyrant is alive. Completely differently to the Lictors ability stating he must be on the table to receive the bonus. So in affect, while the Hive Tyrant is in reserve with his fellow units, as this ability is not actually effecting anything physically on the board and the fact that he is alive I would believe that this bonus also applies while the Tyrant himself is in reserve.

I think if this is true and its certainly worded to reflect this possibility. This then that gives the Nids some real diversity. So in effect, the Deep strike list would be at least a competitive option rather than horde or Nidzilla.

How should this be played please? I would love to start putting my army together but I can’t until this rule is cleared up.

Thanks kindly,
Mat Williams


Mail Response....

Hi Mat

We have had a chat about this in the office and our consensus is that the Hive Tyrant would have to be on the board for the army to make use of the bonus from the Hive Commander special rule. The reason we think this is that if for any reason units or models that are held in reserve do not arrive when the game ends then they are considered destroyed and not alive until they can arrive on the board. And as the models in reserve have no effect on the game then the +1 reserve roll in this instance cannot be used unless the Hive Tyrant is on the board.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Rich Taylor
Games Workshop


I've mailed back on top of this to gain clarification that the Tyrant is infact considered dead thourghout the game while in reserve. I can understand that he is considered dead at the end of the game but he surely should be considered alive whilst in reserve until the game ends. I also respecified that the rule is written completely differently to the Lictors ability stating that he needs to be on the table for this to work. I also asked concerning whether this will be GW's official answer in the FAQ. I'll re-update as soon as I recieve the followup response.

Ask a question three times and you'll likely get three different answers.

Oh god not this again.

The people answering these questions are Box packers with very poor rules knowlege. And as stated, if you ask 3 times you get 4 different answers.

Hell, I can claim that I got an Email from Jervis Himself, saying that Gwar is always right and anyone not listening to him is a very bad man then.

Also, please read the rules of YMTC at the top of the forum, you are breaking them.

Oh , right, I just read it, I'm not sure I understand how I broke the rules exactly, maybe this should be moved to the 40k discussion Forum then?

Point 2, about not using Emails

ah ok, fair enoughs. I saw no other means of actually getting an official statement and my intention was to only share this debate with fellow Dakkarites. Sorry if I've done anything wrong.

I would agree with Gwar about who probably answered you. Afterall, the answer they gave you basically says that when the Mawloc and Deathleaper leave the board using the abilities given to them, they immediately die since "not on the board" equals "not alive".

Yeah, this is why I sad this in my followup email...

“The reason we think this is that if for any reason units or models that are held in reserve do not arrive when the game ends then they are considered destroyed and not alive until they can arrive on the board”.
But they aren’t considered destroyed and not alive until the end of the game if they are still in reserve. Basically the Unit is alive until the end of the game is reached. So being that he is actually considered alive until the end of the game is reached that doesn’t make any sense either.

I can understand something being considered dead if it didnt enter play at the end of the game. but it MUST surely be considered alive before the game ends. Its not like he's dead...Oh look I passed my reserve test and he is resurected like Jesus. What a complete messed up rule which makes no sense at all. I can't wait to see the next reply.

Gwar! wrote:Oh god not this again.

The people answering these questions are Box packers with very poor rules knowlege. And as stated, if you ask 3 times you get 4 different answers.

Hell, I can claim that I got an Email from Jervis Himself, saying that Gwar is always right and anyone not listening to him is a very bad man then.

Also, please read the rules of YMTC at the top of the forum, you are breaking them.

Those aren't rules they are guidelines. There's also a Rule #1 that most posters in YMDC seem to violate quite often...

Frazzled wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Oh god not this again.

The people answering these questions are Box packers with very poor rules knowlege. And as stated, if you ask 3 times you get 4 different answers.

Hell, I can claim that I got an Email from Jervis Himself, saying that Gwar is always right and anyone not listening to him is a very bad man then.

Also, please read the rules of YMTC at the top of the forum, you are breaking them.

Those aren't rules they are guidelines. There's also a Rule #1 that most posters in YMDC seem to violate quite often...

True. I see now my post came off a little harsh. I assure you that was not my intent :(

With things being "dead" when not on the table, what about Deathleaper's "It's After Me..." By this ruling it only works if DL is on the table... (because he "dies" when he jumps back into reserve?). I get the impression that a majority of folks don't play it this way.

Have DL and mawloc become the new phoenixes: born again every other turn... full wounds each time, right?

/sarcasm off

Wait why is the unit "dead" just because it's not alive? I assume alive means it's on the table and not dead, and dead means it was on the table but has now been killed, and not on the table but waiting to come in from reserves means "not alive...yet".

zeshin wrote:Wait why is the unit "dead" just because it's not alive? I assume alive means it's on the table and not dead, and dead means it was on the table but has now been killed, and not on the table but waiting to come in from reserves means "not alive...yet".

So the lesson is not to wear a condom while playing 40K!

I play standing up, so I'm fine.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

zeshin wrote:Wait why is the unit "dead" just because it's not alive? I assume alive means it's on the table and not dead, and dead means it was on the table but has now been killed, and not on the table but waiting to come in from reserves means "not alive...yet".

So the lesson is not to wear a condom while playing 40K!

Even though the humour is at my expense I still lawled enough to get weird looks from the rest of the office.

But seriously I still don't understand why something not being considered alive (in relation to the game) is the same as it being dead.

Ok, I now know what they mean and this is probably going to be how it's FAQ'd, which is a shame because I wanted Hive Commander to work while in reserve so bad.

Basically a Unit is considered alive if on the table. A unit is considered dead if killed and removed from the table or if its still in reserve when the game ends.

A unit in reserve is neither considered alive or dead so any statement inidcating that the ability works while a model is alive will only work if that model/unit is on the table.

GG

L0rdF1end wrote:ah ok, fair enoughs. I saw no other means of actually getting an official statement and my intention was to only share this debate with fellow Dakkarites. Sorry if I've done anything wrong.

The problem is that it's not an official statement, it's just the opinion of whoever answered. But, some people will take it as a holy edict because it came from gw regardless of how nonsensical it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

L0rdF1end wrote:
Basically a Unit is considered alive if on the table. A unit is considered dead if killed and removed from the table or if its still in reserve when the game ends.

A unit in reserve is neither considered alive or dead so any statement inidcating that the ability works while a model is alive will only work if that model/unit is on the table.

GG

I would agree except that we also have lots of "whilst on the table" abilities which would become a pointless distinction.

RAW there's nothing to say definitively that a model in reserve is considered alive but it's certainly not dead which only really leaves one other alternative...

As such, I would say that "whilst still alive" abilities do work in reserve. The alternative interpretation is that we have some appaling inconsistent rule writing, even by GW standards.

Yeah I agree with you to. Its like on or off, 0 or 1, dead or alive, theres no limbo.

Games workshop need to change the wording of the ruling when they FAQ to have some consistency to state "while in play" rather than "while alive" if that's the way they are going to go with the rule.

Or better still stick with the current wording and let me use his ability while in reserve, that's my preference.

I played a deep strike list against Tau last night at my local club. 2/3rds of my army came in second turn with me going second. He didnt have much to shoot with on his third turn after Doom, Terms with devourers, Zoans and a Hive tyrant with TL devourers were finished with him. My Trygon Prime walked through his Broadsides and then Destroyed a Hammerhead and remained on the table along with 75% of my forces. It was an objective game and I ended up winning 2-0.

I played that he didnt work in reserve sticking to the INAT FAQ ruling, got some lucky reserve rolls though. So much fun to play.

Gwar! wrote:Oh god not this again.

The people answering these questions are Box packers with very poor rules knowlege. And as stated, if you ask 3 times you get 4 different answers.

Hell, I can claim that I got an Email from Jervis Himself, saying that Gwar is always right and anyone not listening to him is a very bad man then.

Also, please read the rules of YMTC at the top of the forum, you are breaking them.

But.... He sent ME that email too............

The reason we think this is that if for any reason units or models that are held in reserve do not arrive when the game ends then they are considered destroyed and not alive until they can arrive on the board.

This guy is living in 2007. 5ed did away with that nonsense since all reserves arrive automatically from turn 5.

winterman wrote:

The reason we think this is that if for any reason units or models that are held in reserve do not arrive when the game ends then they are considered destroyed and not alive until they can arrive on the board.

This guy is living in 2007. 5ed did away with that nonsense since all reserves arrive automatically from turn 5.

Not true..
DS turn 5...mishap...go back in reserves...game ends....CRAP!

It's only mostly dead while in reserves! Mostly dead and all dead are separate things. And mostly dead is still slightly alive!


Like said, it's box packers answering rules questions- you're not going to get a definitive answer. So the real solution is to wait until the FAQ or speak with your opponent about it.

Schroedingers Tyrant?

We appear to be done here...