Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, my group and I are wanting to fix some rules, to make them make more common sense, as well as make the game run smoother/faster. I want some main rules that are kind of a WTF, so I can think on how to fix them at my table. Im talking mostly, main rules, not "well in this codex do this, and this codex needs that" Ill come to that impass when I get there. Mainly Im wanting things in the main rules that you guys think should be delt with.

You dont have to give ideas on how to fix them (though this can help) but just rules that personally make you wince and do the "well whatever I didnt write it"
For example, I think running, and moving through difficult terrain are ass backwards. Infact I was thinking of possibly fixing movement (possibly bringing back the old unit movement thing) Mainly to make faster armies FASTER. I laugh seeing a SM in full power armor move as fast as Elder.

Anywho, let the listing BEGIN!

I HATE how things can only ever wound on a 2 plus. Ok so a grot gets hit by an orbital strike from a battle barge and has a one in 6 chance of not being effected by it. That is just plain ridiculous.

Sorry bout the double post.

I think I agree with that line of thinking--

- Weapons that more than double the target's toughness automatically wound. (thus S8 still have to roll to wound T4, but S9 doesn't)

- Tank Shock and Ram rules are a bit rough, how about change to the following;
:: Tank moves straight in a single direction max distance, any infantry in the way take Ld test. If they pass, they move out of the way. If they fail, they go to ground. Any vehicles in the way are rammed.
:: Any vehicles impacted by the tank take a hit with strength equal to the distance moved (roll 1d6 for pen) on the side impacted. The ramming vehicle takes a hit with strength equal to the distance moved-1 (1d6 for pen) against it's front armor (as that is what impacted the target). If the target explodes, continue moving the ramming tank until it reaches the end of its movement- any vehicles impacted are rammed as previously. Infantry in the path are tank shocked as normal.

It's not so much as removing the rules, but simplifying them so they're very easy to remember.


-Deep Strike mishap table ignored, any mishaps that would normally be suffered just place the unit back in reserves (they have to be rolled for again) as they could not safely be transported in and thus are waiting for a better opportunity.

- Perils of the Warp changed a bit; If the psychic test rolls double 1's or 6's, the psyker suffers a single wound, invulnerable save only allowed. No rerolling or other silly things. Double 1's still allows the power to function.







Now you've got me wondering how short the BRB could be made if all the rules were simplified, but done is such a way that is so simple as to appease the RAW-fanatics all the while still retaining the same feel as our current warhammer games. I'm sure some of the rules could be cleared up by simplifying them down to a paragraph...


My other recommendation would be to speed up close combat a lot more... it's a lot more involved and lengthy compared to shooting and often becomes the longest phase of any turn.

Dunno what we could cut out though.

I think that units should take an initiative test when deciding who attacks first in CC. For example, Ork Boyz charge my SM, and we roll. I get a one, meaning I get a total of 5. He gets 6, giving him a total of 9. Therefore, the Orks strike first.

Sorry, JSK, I'm not following you. Why are you adding I to the rolls if the model with the worse roll goes first? Should this be the other way around?

Independent Characters joining and leaving units needs to be simplified. I vote changing that 1st bullet on page 48 as follows:

If, at the end of the movement phase, an IC is within 2" of a friendly unit, it joins that unit for the turn. If it is within 2" of two units decide which one it has joined and make this choice clear to your opponent.

He said that the boyz charge HIS space marines, meaning that when he says "he gets 6 for a total of 9" he means the orks.

JSK-Fox wrote:I think that units should take an initiative test when deciding who attacks first in CC. For example, Ork Boyz charge my SM, and we roll. I get a one, meaning I get a total of 5. He gets 6, giving him a total of 9. Therefore, the Orks strike first.

Yes, because it's not like Orks already beat the living gak out of Space Marines in close combat anyway.

ZoomDakkaDakka wrote:He said that the boyz charge HIS space marines, meaning that when he says "he gets 6 for a total of 9" he means the orks.

PRONOUNS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!!

Vladsimpaler wrote:

JSK-Fox wrote:I think that units should take an initiative test when deciding who attacks first in CC. For example, Ork Boyz charge my SM, and we roll. I get a one, meaning I get a total of 5. He gets 6, giving him a total of 9. Therefore, the Orks strike first.

Yes, because it's not like Orks already beat the living gak out of Space Marines in close combat anyway.

Then how do my marines make orks turn into fairy dust?

Alright, alright back on topic folks.

Ive also had a problem with man carried weapons, vs the same weapon mounted on a vehicle. Your telling me honestly, that a plasma cannon that does the same damage and such as the 10x bigger plasma cannon on a dred or tank?


But Im mainly wanting to shave time off anyway I can. For example, I think the wound allocating and rolling just takes too damn long. Yes, a plasma gunner marine, although carrying a different gun is the same in all other regards as the rest of his squad. I think everyone in the squad should be rolled together for saves (minus the Sgt. because that guy is different in more ways then just weapons. His training and such for example) like you used to. Im pretty sure in a real battle, if the plasma gunner took it in a bad way, one of his squad mates will pick up that gun and start firing. Seriously Im sure everyone in the squad at least has a basic knowledge of the weapon.

So if a 5 man squad w/ Sgt takes 6 wounds, only then does the sgt have to take an armor save. But if they take only 3 or 4 wounds, the squad minus the Sgt takes armor saves, because the wounds havnt filled up the squad as a whole yet.

Any other ideas guys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to ask, how or what, would be a good way to go about making vehicle mounted weapons better stat wise then the man carried versions?

KingCracker wrote:Alright, alright back on topic folks.

Ive also had a problem with man carried weapons, vs the same weapon mounted on a vehicle. Your telling me honestly, that a plasma cannon that does the same damage and such as the 10x bigger plasma cannon on a dred or tank?


But Im mainly wanting to shave time off anyway I can. For example, I think the wound allocating and rolling just takes too damn long. Yes, a plasma gunner marine, although carrying a different gun is the same in all other regards as the rest of his squad. I think everyone in the squad should be rolled together for saves (minus the Sgt. because that guy is different in more ways then just weapons. His training and such for example) like you used to. Im pretty sure in a real battle, if the plasma gunner took it in a bad way, one of his squad mates will pick up that gun and start firing. Seriously Im sure everyone in the squad at least has a basic knowledge of the weapon.

So if a 5 man squad w/ Sgt takes 6 wounds, only then does the sgt have to take an armor save. But if they take only 3 or 4 wounds, the squad minus the Sgt takes armor saves, because the wounds havnt filled up the squad as a whole yet.

Any other ideas guys?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to ask, how or what, would be a good way to go about making vehicle mounted weapons better stat wise then the man carried versions?

With regards to vehicle vs man carried weapons there is some difference when it comes to Plasma Weapons. Basicly if I recall correctly it doesn't get hot whilst on a vehicle. Meaning no dead models when firing.

Unit casualties I also fine annoying, and pointless. So much so that in my gaming group we just role all the dice to wound then choose the models that die, it makes the games more fluid. After all in many of the 40k Novels other members of a squad will pick up the weapons of the fallen if it is important for their mission.
It also becomes annoying when say a plasma gunner needs to take 2 armour saves, and fails both, then a regular Marine also takes 2 saves and passes both. IMHO both should die rather than find half the squad lives because of a quirk in the rules!

I'd make the run move part of movement. You declare you're running and roll the D6 before you move, and then make the whole move at once. For orks and 'nids it'd save a half hour of game time.

For the vehicle mounted weapons I'd give a re-roll to wound/penetrate. 40K right now has fairly tightly controlled St and AP limits, so increasing Strength or AP by even a single point produces much better performances, so that's not really an option. Re-rolling to wound increases a vehicle's weapons without increasing it's range of effective targets.

running shouldn't be part of movement because it makes it easier to keep track of with having it in the shooting phase.

It also gives the players the ability to fire with a certain squad THEN run another squad that would be moving infront of the firing squad, meaning the enemy will not get their 4+ cover save.

Vehicle mounted weapons are the same as infantry mounted weapons, I don't know where you guys are getting this idea of vehicle mounted weapons being bigger...

Hi all.
Well the list of things than need fixing in 40k are;-

The game turn.Change from army level IGO-UGO 3 phases.To interleaved action phases.

Movement, just give a maximum distance the unit can move over open ground, re-introduce the M charactersistic.(Difficult terrain reduced maxumum movement by 2")

Weapon and damage resolution.

Simply subtract the armour -resistance to damage value of the target from the power of the weapon hit.
If we give all units an AR Armour -Resistance to Damage rating 1 to 14, and weapon Armament Power rating AP 5 to 14.

AP- AR = number to roll over to stop the damage from the weapon hit.(Saving throw.)

I have written a rough outline for a rule set that could be used for 40k games.But it needs more refining.

Would you guys have a look and see what bits you like , or what needs futher explanation?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Hi again.
@Valdsimpaler.
Did you try out this new game turn in your new game rules?How did it run?

I suppose I had better explain the basic changes.

Game turn.
Rather than one player moves all thier units, then shoots (or moves again)with all thier units, then moves into close combat, leaving thier opponent to get bored and occasionaly roll saves..

Players decide what 2 actions thier units will take in the following game turn.(Place an individual order counter neaxt ot each of thier units.)
Player A take the first action with all units.
Player B takes first action with all units

Player a takes second action with all units
Player B takes second actiosn with all units.

Players have to plan ahead taking the opponents likley actions into account , they no longer take up to 4 seperate actions unopposed.(Move shoot move C.C. attack.)

Its still IGO/UGO but one action swap, not 3 phases worth of action swap!

Movement. Rather than;-
Everything moves 6" or D6 inches in difficult terrain , APART FROM
Beasts ,
Cavalry,
Monstrous creatures,
Jump Infantry,
Bikes
Jet bikes .
Fast vehilces,
Tanks,
Skimmers,
Models with the following USRs
Fleet,
Hit and run,
Move through cover
Slow and pupousfull,
Turbo boost.

Everything moves up to its movement rate across the playing surface ,modified if applicable ,by the terrain it is crossing compared to movement type, and any special abilities .
NO EXCEPTIONS!

Roling to hit /Aquire.
Rather than a fixed roll to hit ,only interupted by arbitary phisical protections for features on the playing area .
BS4 hits anything any where on the table on the roll of a 3+ unless the target can claim a 6+/5+/4+ cover save instead of an armour save.

All attackers have to AQUIRE (locate identify and bring weapons to bare,) by rolling over the targets Stealth(S) value on a D6.
(Modifiers to make target harder to aquire ADD to thie targets stealth value. Modifiers to improve attackers chance of aquireing target add to the dice roll.)

EG Ork Tank Bustaz unit trying to aquire a Leman Russ battle tank S 1.
The LMR is 8" away and in open ground , the Tank Bustaz need to roll over 1 on a d6 with a +1 modifier for being under 182 away,...they automaticaly aquire the main battle tank within spitting distance!(Orks can spit a long way you know! )

However, if the LMR S1, was at the other end of the playing area (over 36" away +1S),in hull down ( taking full support order +1 stealth) in prepared positions,(Cliaming partial concealment +1 stealth.) and using camo netting (equipment bonus +1 Stealth.)
This raises the LMR stealth value to 1+1+1+1+1=5.(6+)
The Tank Bustaz now need to roll over 5 to aquire the heavily concealed hull down battle tank at the other end of the battle field!


Damage Resolution.
Rather than every model rolling to hit, every hit model rolling to see if its wounded , then rolling to see if a wounded model magicaly becomes unwounded becaise of its armour, or power field or long grass getting in the way or something else ...
Unles its a vehicle then it roll to hit ,beat AV , then roll on a damge table .

Each attacking units rolls to Aquire thier target unit(s) ,(One roll.)
If sucessful in aquiring a target unit(s), each model with LOS and in range makes a sucessful attack on an enemy model in the aqired unit(s).


The AR value is a 'combined armour save and toughness'. This is deducted from the weapons AP (armour penetration value.) to give the value to roll over on a D6 to prevent damage being taken.(Saving throw.)
ALL units get a saving throw.

Vehicles AND monstrous creatures that fail thier saveing throw roll on a damage table modified by how much they fail thier saving throw by.(Similar to current vehicle damage chart,)
(Fail by 1, -2 on damage roll.Fail by more than 4, + 2 to damage roll)

Non vehicle (infantry , cavalry mbeasts bikes etc,) work out moral damage after physical damage has been resolved.(Removed casualties from the unit in proportion to the amount of failed saves.)
Add the units current wounds (Damage points ) to its highest AR value fo get the supression value.
If the attackers supression rating, (Number of shots+ bonus dice from apropriate (full) support /specail-heavy weapons ) is over the targets Supression value the target unit becomes suprtessed.(Shaken.)
If this value is over double the targets supression value the unit becomes neutralised (Stunned)

Summary
Current 40k.
1)Roll to hit.
2)Roll to wound /beat AV
3)Roll to save /on damage table

1) Attacker rolls to aqiure target unit(s).
2)Target rolls to save.(Failed saves cause casualties in non vehicle/MC units.)
3)Attacker rolls to damage(Damage table for vehicles/MCs or moral effects on other units.)


Any questions or comments?

TTFN
Lanrak.