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Here is my first rough draft;

-HQ-

1x Farseer - 120pts
-spirit stones
-doom
-guide


-ELITES-

6x Fire Dragons - 233pts
-exarch
-dragons breath flamer
--Wave Serpent
--star engines
--shuriken cannon

6x Fire Dragons - 233pts
-exarch
-dragons breath flamer
--Wave Serpent
--star engines
--shuriken cannon

10x Howling Banshees - 322pts
-exarch
-mirrorsword
-warshout
--Wave Serpent
--star engines
--eml

-TROOPS-

10x Dire Avengers - 287pts
-exarch
-dual catapults
-bladestorm
--Wave Serpent
--star engines
--eml

10x Dire Avengers - 287pts
-exarch
-dual catapults
-bladestorm
--Wave Serpent
--star engines
--eml

-FAST ATTACK-

3x Vypers - 270pts
-star engines
-shuriken cannon
-eml

-HEAVY SUPPORT-

1x Fire Prism - 135 pts
-star engines
-shuriken cannon

1x Fire Prism - 135 pts
-star engines
-shuriken cannon

1x Fire Prism - 135 pts
-star engines
-shuriken cannon


TOTAL = 2,137pts

I need to drop this down to 2,000pts. The fastest way I could see is drop a Prism and War Shout and I'm under by 3 pts.

I know there are other ways around this. I might need to drop more points so I can get other things i'm missing. Like if I should have holo-fields or spirit stones, another HQ choice, etc....

I was trying to get as many s6 shots possible, might be overkill. I took the vypers because I was just reading that they can be a very good cover unit. One example that i liked was lining them up infront of the land raider or whatever your about to pop with your dragons and with the screen your dragons can't be assaulted. Figured I might try them out.

Please give me some C&C on this, its my first list. I can and will change it in any way, this is not set in stone.

wait this is same list that is in warseer
drop star engines and exerach from dragons they really dont need that and more troops is really good thing to have 3-4 will do the trick

As Devastor said drop star engines from everything except maybe troops if you like star engines. They are pricey and very situational.

Bladestorm vs Marines (which is what 90% of people run) is decent if you have doom on your opponent and guide on the firing unit. 1 Farseer will only let you do this with one of the DA units effectively. Without guide/doom, you'll find bladestorm very lackluster.

Also as Devastor pointed out drop the fire dragon exarchs as they greatly increase the point cost of a unit that WILL die a very painful death.

Take the S Cannons off the Prisms. These things should be WELLL out of 24" on enemies and without holofields if they get hit, a backup gun is the least of your worries.

Vypers I can't really speak to since I don't use them but the mixed weapons kinda has me scratching my head. Starcannons in a coversave world is an overpriced S. Cannon, and S Cannons on something with 10 armor makes me cringe.

Finally, you definately need more then 2 troops. Objectives is 66% of the standard rules book so I would recommend no less then 4.

BlueDagger wrote:As Devastor....Also as Devastor

you missed something

Thanks for the replies, and yes I whore my lists out to multiple forums.

I guess the farseer would go with the DA's, so i could add another for the other unit.

I'll drop the star engines. Does anyone reccommend any of the other 3 vehicle upgrades?

Would GJB's be worth taking in this list to increase my troops?

Or what about Falcons with some storm guardians in them?

I planned on this list being able to counter an ork mech army so the flamers would have helped to take out some orks after i popped the trukks and wagons. Still a bad idea?

Maybe i'll drop the banshees and take some more shooty. I just figured it would be nice to have something to handle a CC problem.

storm guards can't be put in a falcon I believe at 10 models a squad minimum you're stuck putting them in a serpent. I use them in my army, I am happy with their output. the tri-flamer SG squad can easily burn down 20+ orks.

The only vehicle upgrade worth taking is Holo-fields on a falcon or perhaps (although I wouldn't) a prism. Everything else is super situational, but a case could be made for star engines on certain vehicles for a certain playstyle. Perhaps for suiciding dragons at a land raider and scooting out of the way I guess.

In pure-mech, if you're in CC with something you're probably in more trouble than 10 banshees will fix. However, if you use them in a counter-attack role they can be fine.

The reason mechdar asasult is worthless is as has been said ad nauseum, eldar can't assault out of a moving vehicle. nuff said. I tried with my scorpions and they work, but it takes WAY too much planning to move just enough to drop them off JUST right so they're in assault range IF the enemy moves up but can't assault me.

Moving banshees behind other forces that take the brunt of the first assaults, and letting them disembark, move, fleet, assault before the vehicle moves again is the only real way to use them.

However, you come full circle at that point and just say 'well with those points I could get x unit that is mobile and shooty' .. like Warp Spiders, or Dakka DA's in a Serpent.

If your planning to take on orks then yes take another farseer with the other DA Squad. Storm Guardians I've never been a fan of since the terms Close Combat and Guardian should never be used in the same sentence. Spirit Stones can be nice, but I skip it since it's 10pts for a 17% chance roll.

GJB are nice but due to their low LDR use really need to take a Warlock with Embolden or a large GJB pack. I find 3 reg + Warlock to be good for pure obj capping or 4 reg, 2 S cannon, 1 Lock w/ spear to be good for killing and obj capping.

If your facing nob bikers or mega-nobs Banshees can be useful, but if your facing pure giant boyz packs they will get overwhelmed.

BlueDagger wrote:If your planning to take on orks then yes take another farseer with the other DA Squad. Storm Guardians I've never been a fan of since the terms Close Combat and Guardian should never be used in the same sentence. Spirit Stones can be nice, but I skip it since it's 10pts for a 17% chance roll.

I completely agreed on SG until I used 2 flamers and a heavy flamer after a disembark. I could care less what happens after that. They're good. It makes Guard, Tyranids, and Orks much less scary when you have that and perhaps a DBF Dragon Exarch around to thin the masses. (Although I'm no longer doing the DBF thing =p) And even space marines have fallen en mass to my SG flamers. For the cost, I love them.

Yeah when it comes to Storm Guardians I just look at the fact of Space Marines since that is the majority you will see at tourneys, which I play.

You drive up and drop up the 127pt SG in front of a 10 man SM squad.

2x Flamer, 1 Destructor, 8 pistols open up (since you can't assault anyhoo). Being generous, lets say you score 20 hits with flamers and 10 hits with Destructor then get 4 hits statistically with pistols.

Flamers - 50% to wound = 10 wounds
Destructor - 66% to wound = 7 wounds
Pistols - 50% to wound = 2 wounds
Total = 19 wounds, impressive

Armor Save 3+ 66% = 13 wounds saved so you kill 6

Now, you have 10 guys in the open with T3 5+ armor and 1 4+ invul at a LDR of 8 under 12" from the remaining 4 space marines.

Keep in mind that this is probably best case scenario statistically since you won't find often that you will catch all the SM in your flamer templates.

Ok, so this would be my new list;

-HQ-

1xFarseer - 80pts
-doom

1xFarseer - 80pts
-doom

-Elites-

6xFD's - 216pts
-serpent
-eml

6xFD's - 216pts
-serpent
-eml

10xHB's -307pts
-exarch
-executioner
-acrobatic
--serpent
--eml

-Troops-

10xDA's - 272pts
-exarch
-dual cat
-BS
--serpent
--eml

10xDA's - 272pts
-exarch
-dual cat
-BS
--serpent
--eml

10xDA's - 272pts
-exarch
-dual cat
-BS
--serpent
--eml

-Fast Attack-

8xWS's - 208pts
-exarch
-dual spinner
-with drawal

-Heavy Support-

1x Fire Prism - 115pts

1x Fire Prism - 115pts

1x Fire Prism - 115pts

Total = 2,268pts

So, I need to drop 268pts. What would be the best way to do that?

Do the spiders and banshees fit into this list? Should I drop the banshees and just not have any CC?

Should I just drop the spiders?

Should I drop some of the EML's off the serpents to save points?

Drop the EMLs from the fire dragon serpents and drop the squad size to 5. You won't get much more out of 6 then 5 and EMLs on something that is goign to getting in the thick of things just makes it more of a bullet magnet.

Get Runes of Warding on at least one of those Farseers. 15pts to give all enemy psykers the finger is priceless.

Banshee WS prob want to go with scatters or S cannons, once again it's going to be in the enemy's face to drop it's payload.

3 Bladestorm DA is a little much to be honest. Bladestorm is good, but against some armies it just doesn't work great so investing 800ish points into it is prob a lil much. I'd say drop the last DA squad down to a 5 man.

Anything past 2 DA squads with dualcats/bladestorm is wayyyy too much. I used 2 and 1 SG squad at first, and then I realized that I was spending poinst that bounced off of armor. I'm down to 2 troop munching squads now. Anti-armor/anti-MC is more a necessity in this edition than it's been in as along as I can remember.

I agree with Zain. You will need a lot of Anti-Armor/Anti-MC because there are A LOT Of those out there, and it seems like most of the world loves to Mech up.

-HQ-

1xFarseer - 80pts
-doom

1xFarseer - 80pts
-doom

-Elites-

6xFD's - 216pts
-serpent
-eml

6xFD's - 216pts
-serpent
-eml

10xHB's -307pts
-exarch
-executioner
-acrobatic
--serpent
--eml

-Troops-

10xDA's - 272pts
-exarch
-dual cat
-BS
--serpent
--eml

10xDA's - 272pts
-exarch
-dual cat
-BS
--serpent
--eml

10xDA's - 272pts
-exarch
-dual cat
-BS
--serpent
--eml

-Fast Attack-

8xWS's - 208pts
-exarch
-dual spinner
-with drawal

-Heavy Support-

1x Fire Prism - 115pts

1x Fire Prism - 115pts

1x Fire Prism - 115pts

Total = 2,268pts

Not a bad list.
I'd drop the Banshees,
give the Farseers runes of witnesses (if you face Nids) and one Farseer runes of warding (since psykers are everywhere in the 40k universe),
and give all Serpents spirit stones.