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Hey everyone. I'm a new 40k player here. I just got a decent chunk of an army based on reading the forums and talking to other players. I am looking to make a 1500 point Word Bearer army. I would like it demon focused, but still be effective against more tooled up lists. These are the models I own so far, I am just trying to get it into a definitive list:

HQ-

Deamon Prince (Wings and Doombolt) - 140
Greater Deamon - 100

Troops -

10 CSM (Asp. Champ. PW, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino - 245
10 CSM (Asp. Champ. PW, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino - 245

15 Lesser Deamons - 195
15 Lesser Deamons - 195

Heavy Support -

Predator (LG sponsons) - 130
3 Obliterators - 225

I still have 25 points to play with. The idea is, zoom up the CSM's in the Rhinos, and dump them out; then summon the demons as necessary. The Greater Demon will come in where ever is advantageous, and the demon prince/heavy support just clears out anything in line of sight.

What I am not sure about is:
Too many heavy weapons? This has 4 meltas and 4 las cannons. I could drop one obliterator for a total of 100 extra points. Not sure what I would do with it.
If I need even more demons, maybe squads of 20 instead? I don't have much experience at how to balance things at 1500 points.
Only 2 entry points for the greater demon. Those two rhinos hold the heart and soul of the army. I just hope the greater demon can draw enough firepower to get them across the front lines!

Any thoughts/comments/criticism? I look forward from hearing from you all, it seems to be a very knowledgeable community here and I hope I can join in the fun!

You are really soft in T1 with this list. (2 rhinos and a pred?) I love the idea, but I would perhaps drop the daemon prince.

Take a 'sorc' or 'lord' as a Chaos Chaplain with Accursed Crozius.

I would drop the oblits for a land raider. Harder, decent firepower. A good base for future troop squads to rush up and drop off lesser and greater daemons.

Alright, great!

Again, I'm pretty new. I'm not sure exactly what "T1" is, so how would dropping the deamon prince help? I don't have any problem switching him out for a sorcery or lord, it works even better with the "fluff", per say. What would they be able to do that a DP wouldn't?

I looked through the entire codex and didn't find anything called a Accursed Crozius anywhere. Maybe that is old stuff?

I could drop the obliterators for another tank, but, one, I think I'd lose too much fire power (and array of firepower), plus I don't have anything worth putting inside of it: "future troop squads" are not really a concern, I will worry about them when I have a larger list. I also don't want to lose felxability, because of the amount of deep strike/summon units in the army I can go anywhere, and tank is dead weight. because so little starts on the board, if I hide well enough, I should be able to limit the amount of incomming damage (assuming I don't go first) and still get everyone in safely.

Any one else have any comments?

Let me just say that I'm glad to see someone picking up word bearers despite GW's attempt to rub them out. I just finished reading the first two books in the word bearer's series and I was thinking about restarting my word bearers army.

It saddens me greatly to say it, but I was actually thinking about using the blood angels codex instead of the CSM book to represent my army. The word bearers have a strong squad of berzerk/insane dreadnoughts(perfect for furioso/death company dreads), squads of "berzerker-like" marines that worship khorne and favor close-combat(assault troops with red thirst or possibly death company), sanguinary priests to either control the armies bloodlust or unleash it(word bearers use lots of priests to do this exactly),have an elite group of terminators called the anointed to bear the brunt of heavy fire(space marine terminators are superior in just about all ways), use blood and the carnage of battle to spur on their warriors and summon daemons(you would lose the daemons but retain the strong psychic powers and possibly use your "daemons" as scouts or DSing units of another type).

The blood angels codex just blew me away with the parallels to the word bearers (although many would say they are more akin to world eaters) and it is a very strong codex that doesn't rely on an outdated codex or tactics. They have a great set of psychic powers that focus on the word bearer's style of using the carnage/blood/death of battle to focus their psychic energy and channel it into deadly psychic attacks. Simply having strong options in all areas of the force org chart makes it tempting to use their rules until we get an update (probably a few years off still).

Blackbones wrote:
Deamon Prince (Wings and Doombolt) - 140

Doombolt isn't my favorite power(I'd prefer warptime to ensure the DP is dominating in CC against any opponent for fairly cheap), but otherwise fine.

Blackbones wrote:
Greater Deamon - 100

I would really reconsider this. It has to eat a champion or greater csm to join the game which adds even more onto its cost and it has a lot of issues with use. You're better off taking another DP/another HQ/bulking out your troops or HS section.

Blackbones wrote:
10 CSM (Asp. Champ. PW, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino - 245

PW should be a PF if you're taking a champ. Everything else is perfect.

Blackbones wrote:
10 CSM (Asp. Champ. PW, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino - 245

Same as above.

Blackbones wrote:
15 Lesser Deamons - 195

Some people like them, but I personally find them to be a bit lacking. It will take a turn or two to get into position to summon them properly and then they are simply less effective csms(no grenades,no special weapons, no icons, etc) that cost you a bit less. They also increase the amount of fire that your units on board from turn 1 will be taking. If you had say....2 more predators or some terminators it would give your opponent more dangerous targets to think about focusing on.

Blackbones wrote:
15 Lesser Deamons - 195

Same as above. If you take any I would at least drop it down by 1 squad and possibly do just a 10 daemon squad.

Blackbones wrote:
Predator (LG sponsons) - 130

LG sponsons? Do you mean lascannons? Lascannons are certainly a great way to pop transports and other hardened units and predators are probably the best way to take lascannons efficiently. There is also of course the AC turret + Heavy bolter sponson option which gives you a much greater rate of fire to punch through cover saves/etc but either is a good choice. Possibly take another identically equipped pred if you have the points. The more armor you have on the board the better. If you only have 1-2 rhinos and 1 predator your opponent can focus all of his anti-tank on those few tanks. If you had say 3-4 rhinos and 2 predators instead it would hurt a lot less to lose one and your opponents anti-tank fire wouldnt hurt your strategy as badly.

Blackbones wrote:
3 Obliterators - 225

Oblits have great versatility, but they are also very expensive and must fear str8+ (which is very prevalent in today's game)because of the danger of instant death wiping out both wounds. If you take another pred it should be fine, but you may consider a squad of 4x autocannon havocs instead of these.

Blackbones wrote:
Too many heavy weapons? This has 4 meltas and 4 las cannons. I could drop one obliterator for a total of 100 extra points. Not sure what I would do with it.

If you're counting your oblits as lascannons I would take 3x predators or 2x pred + land raider. Oblits using lascannons exclusively are a very expensive way to take lascannons. They are great for their ability to use plasma cannons and multi-meltas.

I'm brand spanking new to this, but I'd think that the daemon prince is both the best of the three mortal HQ options and also a magnet for anti-tank weapons, taking a little bit of heat off the vehicles. Does that sound right or am I totally off base here?

I'd also think putting any gear on an aspiring champ who's going to explode and become a greater daemon seems like a waste. The cheapest ACs in the codex are chosen, you could drop one daemon unit (I know, I know, it's Wordbearers and they love their daemons, just hear me out) for 5 chosen in a rhino, 4 plasma guns to rapid fire monstrous creatures or irritating units/transports, and a naked 28 point champ that's just there to swell up like a big 2d6 AV penetrating, armor save ignoring, six wound tick. It gives you another rhino that can outflank, tank shock, and give the enemy's anti-tank stuff another target.

I'm also just curious about how you're going to model your daemons. I figure undivided daemons can be either a really fun project or a pain in the hole to come up with something original.

Darth Badguy wrote:I'm brand spanking new to this, but I'd think that the daemon prince is both the best of the three mortal HQ options and also a magnet for anti-tank weapons, taking a little bit of heat off the vehicles. Does that sound right or am I totally off base here?

I would avoid using the word "best" and DPs arent exactly mortal anymore now are they? =p

DPs are certainly a great target for all the high strength and long range fire that armies are packing these days but I don't know if I count that as a good thing. Delaying the destruction of a rhino for a turn or two is great, but at the cost of a 150pt or so HQ? The other HQ options can be better protected by joining a squad and not making such an easy target. DPs are great at being a hybrid psyker/cc beast that can crack open vehicles, but they aren't immune to harm and won't last long under a serious barrage. I prefer a sorc/lord with a pair of raptors wielding meltas to a DP(s) in most cases, but I also wouldn't say that setup is the best squad possible(because there is no "best"). It depends on what other units you are taking and what you want your army to play like.

Alright, after looking it all over, this is what I came up with!

HQ
DP – Wings, Warptime - 155
Warptime is probably better, if I am giving him wings to get into CC as fast as possible, I should maximize that situation instead of a ranged power.
DP vs. Lord: By the time I gave a Lord/Sorc the upgrades to be on the same power level, all I did was effectively create a less attractive target. I do need the daemon prince to draw fire away from the Rhinos, if he dies every game, great, as long as I can get the lesser daemons into CC.

Greater Daemon – 100
For 100 points, this guy is a beast. It fits the flavor of the army and fits the play style of popping out daemons where I need them. If they kill the DP, the GD will be in their face. With the new plan of a specific squad to do it, he is even more protected and can be placed where needed.

Troops
10 CSM (Asp. Champ, PF, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino = 255
10 CSM (Asp. Champ, PF, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino = 255
These guys are the bread and butter of the army. I changed the PW for the PF. It was completely right that there is no reason to spend points on an Asp. Champ that is only going to explode to become a greater daemon. So, under the new plan, these guys will just be for zooming up in a rhino, bringing out the demons, and using melta as needed before CC.

20 Lesser Daemons – 260 pts
With 20 as a single group, that is a big pocket of nasty that I can bring out at any point. It can be placed with either Rhino group, wherever it will be best used, only adding to the flexibility and ultimate benefit of being able to summon them out of nowhere. It seems to be a more cost effective and manageable group than 2 at 15. I will just pick a target or lane for the daemons, and let them loose.

2x Obliterators – 150
Two seems to be good enough, they are expensive, but the range of firepower and ability to deep strike are necessary for the play style.
Obliterators vs. Havoc Squad: A 5 man generic havoc squad plus 4 AC’s, is 155 points. It is 5 wounds at 3+, and only the AC’s. The obliterators is a range of everything from lascannons to multi-meltas to flamers plus 4 wounds with 2+ saves, and a 5+ invul, and deep strike, for only 150 points. They both are just as susceptible to Str 8+ insta death. The only saving grace for the havocs would be a champ and icon for another entry point for demons/greater demon, but that bumps their point cost even higher comparatively. I think the obliterators have the advantage still, plus I already own them =)

5 Chosen (Asp. Champ, 4x Melta) + Rhino = 175
I realized you don’t need an Icon to summon the Greater Daemon, just one sacrifice who is a Champ. This squad seems rather plain, but it does a couple things. One, it gives me a way to bring in the GD without giving up a more expensive leader from another unit. Two, it puts a third Rhino on the table which makes it more likely to survive getting up close. Three, according to the rules, I can have the GD pop out of the Rhino itself and leave the squad inside. I have 40-50 points left over. I have 50 points of Special Weapons for the 4 (not exploding) Champs, or something else. I choose Melta randomly, only 40 points, but it could be anything. Any ideas?

Predator – (AC + HB) = 100
Predator – (AC + HB) = 100
These are for more armor, and high rate of fire.

SO!

After all of that. Here is the breakdown: I start with 5 tanks a Daemon Prince on the table. Inside I have 20 CSM, 4 melta, 2 PF, and 20 more daemons ready launch into assault out the door, plus 4 more meltas and a big ol’Greater Daemon with the Chosen. Obliterators drop from the sky, and the two Preds take fire and blast what they can. All in all it is 45 troops, 8 meltas, 2 PF, 5 tanks, 2 AC, Oblits, a Deamon Prince, and a Greater Daemon, for a tiny 1500 points of Word Bearers.
What do you think? Here is a recap for easy reference:

DP – Wings, Warptime, – 155
Greater Daemon – 100
5 Chosen (Asp. Champ, 4x Melta) + Rhino = 175
10 CSM (Asp. Champ, PF, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino = 255
10 CSM (Asp. Champ, PF, IoCG, 2x Melta) + Rhino = 255
20 Lesser Daemons – 260 pts
2x Obliterators – 150
Predator – (AC + HB) = 100
Predator – (AC + HB) = 100
1490/1500!

*Edit for an error*

Blackbones wrote:Alright, after looking it all over, this is what I came up with!

HQ
DP – Wings, Warptime, Mark of Khorne - 165
Warptime is probably better, if I am giving him wings to get into CC as fast as possible, I should maximize that situation instead of a ranged power.
DP vs. Lord: By the time I gave a Lord/Sorc the upgrades to be on the same power level, all I did was effectively create a less attractive target. I do need the daemon prince to draw fire away from the Rhinos, if he dies every game, great, as long as I can get the lesser daemons into CC. The Mark is for an extra attack to make the best of Warptime!

Can you have the mark of khorne + psyker?

Haha, you're right. I will fix that. It was an add-in at the end. It doesn't say it under the icon information itself, just under the list of powers. Good eye! I can spend it somewhere else =)

*EDIT* Alright, that is fixed. Now that I look at it, I feel like I'm over invested in anti-tank weaponry. I mean, 8 meltaguns plus 2 monstrous creatures, and 2 obliterators? Is that too much? I have 50 points to oufit the 4 chosen with, maybe they should get something other than melta. I have no idea what, though. They are going to have to get pretty close in order to dump out the GD, two can shoot out the top, should I only get two "better" special weapons? AC or Missile Laucher? Maybe Combi-melta or flamers? I don't have enough points to deck them out in CC. Suggestions?

Halsfield wrote:

I would avoid using the word "best" and DPs arent exactly mortal anymore now are they? =p

DPs are certainly a great target for all the high strength and long range fire that armies are packing these days but I don't know if I count that as a good thing. Delaying the destruction of a rhino for a turn or two is great, but at the cost of a 150pt or so HQ?

You're right, fair enough. By best I meant "looks most dangerous to me" and "seems to be what the powergamers all take." Although I guess They just all do the prince + lash thing, which isn't what Blackbones is going for. Also, by mortal I meant not a bunch of ectoplasm summoned from the warp.

As a target for anti-tank stuff, the rhino can usually take one direct hit while the DP can take four (and the GD can take 6!). I'm not trying to start an argument or say that I know more about 40k than you do, just explaining my rationale.

Just a friendly bump for the revised list.

Also, does anyone have any feedback on Chosen CSM? Are they just the same models as normal ones, except a squad with more heavy weapons?

I do like the revised list.
I like your move to have a Chose AC be the sacrifice for the Greater Daemon. you wouldn't want to go wasting points on those AC's with PF's now would you?