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Hello all,

I just started a Mighty Empires campaign and my first opponent is wood elves, I was wondering what your opinions are on this list and the strategy involved.

I chose the Scouts event for Mighty Empires, so he deploys completely and then I do, and then I go first.

I am considering dropping 2 Sword Masters for 2 Phoenix Guard to give me a solid 3 ranks? I also understand that this army tactic would have major issues against alot of other armies but in this case, I know I am playing Wood Elves.

Mage
-Level 2, Seer Staff of Saphery, Dispel Scroll (Corrected illegal purchase)
-Lore of Life (Howling Wind is a primary concept)

Mage
-Level 2, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury
-High Magic (Fury of Khaine, and Drain Magic are the two biggies here, drain magic to improve the casting level of Howling Wind, so he can't dispel it as easily)

10 Archers
5 White Lions, No Command (Changed as advised by posters.)
5 White Lions, No Command (Changed as advised by posters.)
13 Phoenix Guard, Musician (Changed for an additional rank, and placed musician)

5 Dragon Princes
-Standard Bearer, Elyrion Banner (Changed as advised by posters.)

Probable Deployment

Phoenix Guard forward center with both mages

White Lions on opposite Diagonal lines covering both flanks of the Phoenix Guard, think a wedge formation. This may spook his fast cavalry from getting very close to try the circle and shoot tactic common to wood elves.

Archers elevated behind the the Phoenix Guard

Dragon Princes to oppose any flankers. . .

Swordsmasters vs Wood Elves?

Good Luck with that...

Go for white lions rather than swordsmasters- Move through woods, stubborn, and get the lion pelt add on to save vs shooting.

If I were playing High Elves, I'd be one of those people that took the Dragon Mage of Jerkdom to sub-2k games and fly about causing Terror and launching magic missiles about. It's also handy that the entire Wood Elf list is Flammable and things with Ward Saves lose them against magic.

Not a bad idea Kirbinator

As to the list above, while I hate giving tips to defeat my beloved wood elves... I think Waaagh_Gonads is right. You'll almost certainly face two units of glade guard, and those swordmasters are going to evaporate if they got shot with nothing in front of them!

I'd personally be very afraid of your swordmasters, since I don't have much shooting... but your typical wood elves will down them before they make it to combat, I think.

If I were you, at this point level I'd be tempted to just go with one mage for magic defense... it will be nice if you can get off some casts, but you're counting on it with that large of your points percentage devoted to it.

What other models do you have available? For some reason, I feel like this list would do better against all-comers, and that wood elves are not a good matchup for it.

Definitely going to echo W_G's suggestions. Unless your opponent is going dryad-heavy, you're looking to face a lot of shooting. While Swordmasters will do a number against most things when they get in combat, they can't really take shooting very well at all. You'd have to be relying on Shield of Sapherying them all the way to the enemy, when you'd be better off spamming magic missiles or else. If possible, get White Lions - they'll still inflict massive damage, but have nice protection against shooting and can move through those woods quickly.

Drop the musician on the DP.

Personally, I would opt for a Noble with the Reaver Bow instead of that first mage. Chances are, your other lvl2 will be able to dish out a fair amount of damage with the RoF and possibly Flames of the Phoenix (or even more Fury of Khaine goodness).

Kirbinator's suggestion is fun. While it does become more of a "all eggs in one basket" scenario, Dragon Mages are a pain in the ass to deal with at lower points level. Silver Wand + Guardian Phoenix makes him a spam cannon with at least _some_ protection against shooting.

Also, the first Mage is illegal (can't have two arcane items).

I appreciate everyone's opinion but I have noticed that all of you seem to be ignoring the idea of Howling Wind paired with Drain magic, I was wondering why?

Thank you for pointing out the issue with the ring of Corin, I always forget that its an arcane item. I guess I will switch it for the Amulet of Light for better anti-dryad work.

My reasons for avoiding the Sun Mage are two fold and quite simple he has his abilities divided to much and the bastard falls off the dragon every time, because of the Large Target and the mage not having an armor save.

The White Lions, are a better choice than the sword masters, since their more resistant if Howling Wind fails or is counter spelled.

I think your idea to combine Howling Wind with Drain Magic is great! Just be sure to check his army list before choosing your Lores. If he doesn't bring a lot of shooting than you shouldn't take the Lore of Life.

Swordmasters are a terrible unit against Wood Elves. Not only are they vulnerable to shooting (Glade Guard), they are also vulnerable to units with a decent amount of attacks that will strike them first (like charging Dryads).

Also, what do you intend to do when your opponent fields a Treeman?

Airmaniac wrote:Swordmasters are a terrible unit against Wood Elves. Not only are they vulnerable to shooting (Glade Guard), they are also vulnerable to units with a decent amount of attacks that will strike them first (like charging Dryads).

Also, what do you intend to do when your opponent fields a Treeman?

Sword Masters like all High Elves, strike first they only get beat at this versus a specific vampire item, and certain dark elf units with a magic banner.

I am expecting to use the Ring of Fury, and Fury of Khaine to try and burn that tree down first. . . But I do expect that to be a problem if he fields one in a 1000 points. . .

Here is my 1000pt list (off the top of my head) that I use with woodies. May give you an idea of what you could be facing. I think it is quite efficient and would probably beat your list that you have put above (unless if it is played horribly.

Noble on steed with hail of doom arrow and helm of the hunt
5 glade riders
2*10 archers
2*6(ish) wardancers)
2*8 dryads

Hail of doom arrow is awesome at this points level so be prepared for it. It would probably wipe out one of your units. Then the noble has 4S5 attacks on the charge. Quite a powerful, mobile and versatile character
Wardancers are also awesome at this points level as they have the ability to take down anything. No one usually has an uber unit but they may have small units of heavy cav or small units of elite infantry (swordmasters, white lions, phoenix guard for example). Also before you say but I strike first the wardancers have higher inititave and can use a dance to strike first so that removes that bonus you have. Your wizards also won't be too safe as there is no units large enough to withstand an all out missile assault for one full turn (HODA, 20 archers, 5 glade riders). Phoenix guard are obviously the most likely due to their size.

This list also has 56 models to your 40 which is a significant advantage as by the time combat comes they are likely to be outnumbering you 2 - 1

So onto your list. I think for 1000pts or less core choices should take up the majority of your list (thats for most armies) with one or two special/rare choices. The above is all core with one character and two specials.


Characters
I would either get a third wizard or drop them alltogether because you have to decide to dominate the magic or just ignore it. Keep in mind that wood elves don't have decent offensive magic and probably won't run any (I wouldn't). Also as howler wind is not the #1 spell you can't bet on getting it (unless if you get to choose your spells)
If you don't go magic heavy then a single hero lvl elf should suffice as your general. Tool him up as best you can and I would reccomend mounting him. This means he will be able to assist where you need him either with fighting ability or leadership.

Units
repeater bolt throwers would do well as they can easily whittle down archers preventing them from killing your own units. If they do take a treeman (i wouldn't at this points level but you never know) they will be able to put a dint in him as well. Other units I'd consider are chariots, archers, fast cav and spearmen. Spearmen can get a decent combat bonus and strike first. Handy for things like dryads and wardancers who won't want to charge a fully ranked unit even if they strike first (dancers). If you can get the points two fully ranked units (15-20) would be ideal. Chariots do impact hits which hit before wardancers strike (with T3 and 6+ ward it can tear through them). Fast cav can counter fast cav and provide flank charges.

Well theres my 2 cents

citadel97501 wrote:

Airmaniac wrote:Swordmasters are a terrible unit against Wood Elves. Not only are they vulnerable to shooting (Glade Guard), they are also vulnerable to units with a decent amount of attacks that will strike them first (like charging Dryads).

Also, what do you intend to do when your opponent fields a Treeman?

Sword Masters like all High Elves, strike first they only get beat at this versus a specific vampire item, and certain dark elf units with a magic banner.

I am expecting to use the Ring of Fury, and Fury of Khaine to try and burn that tree down first. . . But I do expect that to be a problem if he fields one in a 1000 points. . .

High Elves do not always strike first. Yes, they all have the Always Strikes First Special Rule, but so do other units on the charge. When both sides have Always Strike First, Initiative is the decider (ignoring any penalties for Great Weapons). Since Dryads have higher Initiative then Swordmasters, they will strike you first when they charge you. In this case, your T3 Sv5+ models will be taking 2 WS4 S4 attacks from every Dryad in base contact before they get to strike, meaning there won't be that many left to strike.

Each casting of Fury of Khaine (including the Ring of Fury) will give you an average of 1,16333 wounds caused on a Treeman. Since the Wood Elves player will probably be smart and use his Dispel Dice to dispel the Ring of Fury, once he knows you have it, there will only be 1 casting of Fury of Khaine per turn (if you even get the Spell). This means this method will take a pretty long time to kill the Treeman.

Ignore what the guy above me said about taking 3 Wizards, 3 Characters in a 1000 point game is ridiculous and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. You could however, to boost your Magic dominance, try to add the Banner of Sorcery somewhere. This will give you a total of 6+D3 Power Dice each turn, plus the Ring of Fury.

Airmaniac wrote:
High Elves do not always strike first. Yes, they all have the Always Strikes First Special Rule, but so do other units on the charge. When both sides have Always Strike First, Initiative is the decider (ignoring any penalties for Great Weapons). Since Dryads have higher Initiative then Swordmasters, they will strike you first when they charge you. In this case, your T3 Sv5+ models will be taking 2 WS4 S4 attacks from every Dryad in base contact before they get to strike, meaning there won't be that many left to strike.

Airmaniac, some of the information you have their is old, in the current rule set the ability "Always Strikes First", skips over the normal rules regarding chargers going first. This is stated in the High Elves FAQ of 2008. I will post the relevant passage with the bolded text being the important one.

High Elf FAQ page 1 wrote:
When two models with the ASF rule are fighting, they will strike in descending initiative order, rolling a dice in case of the same initiative. All other factors, such as charging, great weapons, etc., are ignored, because they have already been bypassed by the ASF rule.

Good points, leighr3029! And nice to see another wood elf player on the boards (we're taking over )

I believe citadel97501 is right on about this, Airmaniac, unless I've been playing things grossly wrong. High Elves will still Always Strike First, even if the dryads charge. This was done against me by dark elves with the banner that gives them this ability, even though I charged.

So, are you considering swapping out for the white lions now? Also, the magic combination idea you have is a good one, I didn't comment on it because I was too lazy to go and look up what the combination of those two things would do . It also didn't occur to me, since an opponent recently took the Lore of Life against me, but since I have no shooting, it did very, very little. So the advice above about NOT taking that lore if he has little or no shooting is good.

If that is the case, I'd go with Lore of Fire (and I'd be tempted to go with that either way, actually ).

RiTides wrote:So, are you considering swapping out for the white lions now? Also, the magic combination idea you have is a good one, I didn't comment on it because I was too lazy to go and look up what the combination of those two things would do . It also didn't occur to me, since an opponent recently took the Lore of Life against me, but since I have no shooting, it did very, very little. So the advice above about NOT taking that lore if he has little or no shooting is good.

If that is the case, I'd go with Lore of Fire (and I'd be tempted to go with that either way, actually ).

I have changed the army list I plan on using to include the White Lions, I guess I should edit the original post. Changes will be posted in Italics.

citadel97501 wrote:

Airmaniac wrote:
High Elves do not always strike first. Yes, they all have the Always Strikes First Special Rule, but so do other units on the charge. When both sides have Always Strike First, Initiative is the decider (ignoring any penalties for Great Weapons). Since Dryads have higher Initiative then Swordmasters, they will strike you first when they charge you. In this case, your T3 Sv5+ models will be taking 2 WS4 S4 attacks from every Dryad in base contact before they get to strike, meaning there won't be that many left to strike.

Airmaniac, some of the information you have their is old, in the current rule set the ability "Always Strikes First", skips over the normal rules regarding chargers going first. This is stated in the High Elves FAQ of 2008. I will post the relevant passage with the bolded text being the important one.

High Elf FAQ page 1 wrote:
When two models with the ASF rule are fighting, they will strike in descending initiative order, rolling a dice in case of the same initiative. All other factors, such as charging, great weapons, etc., are ignored, because they have already been bypassed by the ASF rule.

I understand all this, but for the above to be in effect, both sides must have the Always Strike First rule. I was confused about the wording of the charge bonus. I thought Charging granted the unit Always Strikes First, which is why I thought Initiative would be the decider. Charging, however, does not give you the Always Strikes First Special Rule for a single combat phase. Instead, charging makes units automatically strike first, which is after ASF units have struck.

Oh man, you have to bump up the numbers of those White Lions. 5 is not nearly strong enough to withstand any significant amount shooting, even with the +2 bonus.

I would drop that second mage to boost the units of white lions. What about this list?

Mage- Lvl 2, Staff of Saphery, Dispel Scroll- 185
10 Spearmen- 90
15 Phoenix Guard, Standard- 237
10 White Lions- 150
10 White Lions- 150
5 Dragon Princes, Standard, Banner of Ellyrion- 185
Total- 997

I had to change the archers to spearmen to make it fit. You could also adjust the above list in two directions:

-Drop the dispel scroll (not really needed vs. wood elves, who don't have much offensive magic) and the Phoenix Guard standard to fit in a Drakemaster with Amulet of Light to the DPs, to negate the ward saves of forest spirits (none vs. magical attacks)
...or...
-Drop the dispel scroll, the standard and banner from the DPs, and add in the Banner of Sorcery and a musician to the Phoenix Guard. This would give you magical abilities similar to what you have with two mages, but in a more effective list since your white lions are boosted now. It also takes full advantage of your anvil unit, by making it much more desirable for him to go after it and to try to get rid of that banner (instead of evading you the whole game). If you get 2 extra dice, you can try two 3-dice spells per turn. Pretty nasty at 1000 points! I think this configuration would be unfair to your opponent at this level as far as magic goes, but it'd be very effective!

Well, those are my thoughts, hope it helps!