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Hey guys,

I've been thinking about the Tau and this is how I'd analyse their policy toward humans:

Obey us or die, submit yourselves to our authority, join our rigid caste system, be treated as second-class citizens and possibly, if there is resistance, be sterilised.

Whereas, as far as I know, the Imperium requires only

-Membership of an Imperial Cult
-Obedience to Terra
-Submit your tithe
-Show loyalty to the Imperium (purge Chaos, etc.)

Beyond that, the Arbites and the Imperium itself will not harass a planetary government, pretty much no matter what it does, so long as it obeys these tenents.

Technically within this framework, you could have representative democracies within the Imperium, they're not opposed to this... To be honest, I can imagine life on an Imperial world could in theory almost be "ideal". All I can imagine the Tau bringing is technology.

So the question is: Does the guaranteed second class citizenship and loss of self-determination (and possibly your balls) sound better than the tenents of the Imperium?

Depends on the planet. If its on of those ideal worlds or very well governed then Imperium. If its a Hive World where everyone wears a gas mask because of the pollution and gangs run about killing each other and everyone all day then I'd go with Tau. Tau you do run the added risk of getting eaten by a mad Kroot though.

Where does every get the idea about being second class citizens, I can't find anything about it. I know some look down on kroot, but thats due to their savagery so humans would do the same. However a lot of the Fire caste repsect the Kroot as soldiers.

Personaly I would choose Tau every time. Even on "nice" imperial worlds you have basically no rights. In your description of the imperial lifestyle you didn't mention the chance of being forced into the IG (so it's likely you will never see your home again and almost certain you will die), being investigated by the inquisition (at very best you will die), having to work very hard for little money just so you can pay the government, and the stupidly high crime rates on many planets.

Tau worlds would have very little and possibly no crime. Better technology makes life easier and a more practical view to life means less stress. The rulers actualy care about you, and will try to keep you alive, and there is very little chance of being killed by your own team. When you join their armies you have a much longer life expectancy. you don't have to give up your beliefs so worship whever you like.

The Tau do have the caste system which isn't great from our point of view but in reality you don't get much choice about work on an imperial planet. They may sterilise you but IMO thats better than the imperial punishments (being turned into a servitor-no thanks)

Does anyone know how the Tau live? What their planets are like? Sure, they might be beautiful open-air gardens and mansions with courtyards now, but what happens when they control every "willing" (or forced) species for the greater good?

I don't believe that just because the Tau take over a Hive world that the place will start smelling like flowers again. The larger the Tau empire becomes the more corrupt and inefficient it will become, just like what is happening with the Imperium.

I would personally prefer to stick with humanity. They are my people, and some Imperial planets could be considered "nice". Any Ultramarine's planet would probably peaceful, and as long as you do your job no one will mess with you. It'd be like living in ancient Greece...but in the future...

Ok, in the human Imperium you can be killed for anything and I don't think you'll like to live in that oppresive, slavist, working system.
I think Tau are much better.
That, or following Horus... muwahahahahahahaha!!!

I'm sorry OP but you're talking nonsense.

Please read some actual literature on life for humans in the Tau Empire.

Anyone who joins in the Greater Good is treated as an equal brother by the Tau.

There's a famous story from GW - a propaganda pict sent out by a former Imperial system left behind and rolled into the expanding Tau Empire.

A Gue'vesa member said that they were given land to farm, Tau technology to use and were allowed to be more free than they ever had under the Imperium.

He ended with 'we called the Xenos evil. I'm starting to think it was the Imperium that is the real evil in this galaxy...'

The Imperium is an immeasurably worse place if you an alien.

4M2A wrote:Where does every get the idea about being second class citizens, I can't find anything about it. I know some look down on kroot, but thats due to their savagery so humans would do the same. However a lot of the Fire caste repsect the Kroot as soldiers.

Personaly I would choose Tau every time. Even on "nice" imperial worlds you have basically no rights. In your description of the imperial lifestyle you didn't mention the chance of being forced into the IG (so it's likely you will never see your home again and almost certain you will die), being investigated by the inquisition (at very best you will die), having to work very hard for little money just so you can pay the government, and the stupidly high crime rates on many planets.

Tau worlds would have very little and possibly no crime. Better technology makes life easier and a more practical view to life means less stress. The rulers actualy care about you, and will try to keep you alive, and there is very little chance of being killed by your own team. When you join their armies you have a much longer life expectancy. you don't have to give up your beliefs so worship whever you like.

The Tau do have the caste system which isn't great from our point of view but in reality you don't get much choice about work on an imperial planet. They may sterilise you but IMO thats better than the imperial punishments (being turned into a servitor-no thanks)

Well, if you don't want to enter the IG you can try duck out of serving in the PDF (since the IG are drafted directly from them), but then again I hadn't given thought to the massive poverty, low income, etc.

I wouldn't accept the Inquisition as a valid threat though... even if they do execute millions of "heretics", I'm sure the odds of them picking you out from the crowd are slim.

You'll only be made a Servitor if you peev off the AdMech

Miraclefish wrote:I'm sorry OP but you're talking nonsense.

Please read some actual literature on life for humans in the Tau Empire.

Anyone who joins in the Greater Good is treated as an equal brother by the Tau.

There's a famous story from GW - a propaganda pict sent out by a former Imperial system left behind and rolled into the expanding Tau Empire.

A Gue'vesa member said that they were given land to farm, Tau technology to use and were allowed to be more free than they ever had under the Imperium.

He ended with 'we called the Xenos evil. I'm starting to think it was the Imperium that is the real evil in this galaxy...'

True, I've not read much in the way of literature, this is just what I glean off of Lexicanum...

What made me figure that they treat humans like second-class citizens was the treatment of the Gue'vesa, they're not issued Tau technology until they prove themselves... and, like you said, the Kroot aren't treated well.

Plus, ultimately, how are humans sorted into castes? do they form their own? And in the end they're going to be subordinate to an Ethereal.

The Kroot are treated well - they're given Tau military support and are the most trusted and longest-serving ally of T'au.

Humans aren't issued Tau technology for the same reason soldiers aren't given guns until they have trained. Tau tech is superior and isn't given to the humans until it's clear that they are allies - rather than infiltrating spies.

That's not mis-treatment, that's just good sense.

Humans in the Tau Empire are allowed to work in whichever field they have the most ability. Some, like Astropaths or Navigators and spaceship pilots may work alongside the Air Caste, miners and artificiers would naturally find their homes with the Earth Caste, politicans and negotiators would work alongside the Water Caste, helping bring others into the Tau Empire and soldiers will train with the Fire Caste.

Repost from a different thread:

I don't think it is so easy to nail down what a "typical" imperial world is. It seems like the sector and planetary governors are given large amoun ts of leeway in how to set things up and let things run under them. So long as they meet their tax requirements, the imperium doesn't care much what they do.

Consequently you have a lot of variety. Some are going to allow and encourage high levels of technology and you will see Technical paradises, totalitarian utopias, fanatical religious sectors where everyone is brainwashed into the imperial cult from birth, oppressive big brother-esque sci-fi dictatorships, and even some free market republics, each governor trying to achieve his own ideal of what society can and should be.

Others are going to see their worlds as things to be used. Prison worlds where the basic unit of society is not the family, but the press gang. Mine worlds where 99% of the population never sees the sun, are pressed into labor at age 5, and die of black lung before they reach 30. Factory hells where the populace is lobotomized at birth--little better than servitors--and only the aristocracy has free will.

Some governors seem to take a hands off approach, rarely interfering with the societies under their care, except to collect taxes. There you will see societies at every level of development: from bronze age to early space flight. The most advanced of them only suspect the existence of other life forms in the galaxy, having only vague and unreliable reports of UFOs and abductions in the night, as the black ships collect their due. Only at the highest levels of government is the truth known, and great effort goes into covering up the disappearances of entire populations to as they are pressed into the guard.

Some worlds have been settled for over 20,000 years, since the dark age of technology. Over such a great period of time, and with near total isolation, societies and cultures have been able to evolve to a degree that has never been observed ion modern day earth. If you think asian, european, and african cultures are unique, imagine what changes have occurred in the imperium. There are millions of languages, cultures, and customs. Likely there are governments and economic models we have not yet invented. Empires within the Empire.

All of this is tied together by the Imperium of Man. Like I said in the beginning, I doubt there is such thing as a "typical" imperial world. Their cultures, customs, architecture, and governments are more numerous and varied than anything we have witnessed on earth.

Long story short, all though some fluff depicts everywhere in the imperium as pure GRIDMARK, not all fluff does. Most of it implies that the Imperium is a vast and diverse empire. The Imperium itself is rarely the entity doing the oppressing, but the local governors. Certainly there are many worlds with good quality of life.

Combine that with the mental stress of living in a alien culture and I think you will see many worlds that a human would rather live on than a Tau one. I don't that that the stress of being under alien governance can be overstated. Look at the problems a westerner has living in China long term, or the issues introduced into a marriage where the partners come from vastly different cultures. Now multiply that by a thousand. No matter how ideal life is for a Tau, it is going to be rare that a human will be able to fully appreciate it.