Land Speeders VS Attack Bikes ?

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**Mr. DK**

Hey dakka , I'm working on a fast blood angel army right now.. but ever since I first started vanilla marines a while back Ive been stuck on which fast support unit is better to keep up with assault marines. Attack bikes, or Land Speeders? Land speeders can take more weapons and pick from a larger selection, but the points will add up fast, while attack bikes are good for taking out tanks with their multi meltas.
From an all around kind of perspective, what could b used more effectiveley ? Land speeders can easily survive small arms fire, but attack bikes can get cover saves from turbo boosting.. What do you all think?

**Grey Templar**

landspeeders won't get slowed down by terrain and cost only a little more.

**PanzerLeader**

Attack bikes. 3 bikes with heavy bolters give you 15 shots inside twelve inches with which to soften up infantry and then they can still pile into the assault to support your assault marines. MM bikes have the ability to plant krak grenades on anything that survived the shooting. The fact that they are on the ground with a reduced profile vis-a-vis the landspeeder also greatly increases their survivability. Its much easier to hide them from enemy shooting since they aren't an additional ~3 inches or so in the air.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Attack bikes. 3 bikes with heavy bolters give you 15 shots inside twelve inches with which to soften up infantry and then they can still pile into the assault to support your assault marines. MM bikes have the ability to plant krak grenades on anything that survived the shooting. The fact that they are on the ground with a reduced profile vis-a-vis the landspeeder also greatly increases their survivability. Its much easier to hide them from enemy shooting since they aren't an additional ~3 inches or so in the air.

**Vanguard27**

Templars
Speeders = 195 points for 3 of them with MM
Attack Bikes = 195 points for 3 of them with MM

Vanilla
Speeders = 180 points for 3 with MM
Attack Bikes = 150 points for 3 with MM

I am not sure about the new BA codex, as I don't have it.

As the templars, I will always take speeders over Bikes, I like having an AV instead of T5. I also like to not worry about terrain.

If I were playing Vanilla Marines.. its a tougher choice, as that 30 points could be handy somewhere else

**tedurur**

Not to mention that the Speeders can block the path of a LR carrying TH/SS and similar death star units.

**Flavius Infernus**

tedurur wrote:Not to mention that the Speeders can block the path of a LR carrying TH/SS and similar death star units.

QFT. Park a speeder 1" in front of a transport like a land raider or battlewagon, and the vehicle is basically stuck for at least one turn while it backs up and drives around. If it tries to ram, you get your 3+ skimmer save. Pass, and the vehicle is stuck there for another turn. Vehicles can just roll over bikes.

A speeder can also pin down hardcore assault units like genestealers or hormagaunts. Move 7"+ and flame them, they need 6's to hit you in assault and 6's to damage. Zoom up on an objective held by guys with bolters in the last turn, and there's a good chance they're not going to be able to hurt you. A bike in that situation would just get assaulted and wiped out.

Comparing points values and weapon loadouts, bikes and speeders are about equal. But because they're vehicles, speeders can interdict movement in a way bikes never could.

**JSK-Fox**

I would take Speeders for the fact that they get twice as many good, special weapons as attack bikes.

**Volkan**

Is the army going to be mechanized or will it be more of a jump pack based infantry force?

If Mechanized I'd probably go with speeders as its another hard target to shoot. They can also make use of their flat out move the majority of the time and can ignore terrain when moving over it.

If its going to be a jump troop based force the attack bikes offer target saturation. with the ability to turbo boost they gain a better cover save and if they are less than S8 it takes 2 wounds to take them down.

Cheers,
~Volkan

**Sanctjud**

The LS being a vehicle and not lockable by charging is as much a pro as the AB being able to charge stuff and be locked.

I personally like Attack Bikes, they have a better 'turbo' save and are easier to hide behind most terrain.

Speeders I only generally would reserve a spot for the Typhoon...but is just too expensive for my tastes.

**Flavius Infernus**

Sanctjud wrote:The LS being a vehicle and not lockable by charging is as much a pro as the AB being able to charge stuff and be locked.

Agreed, but not what I was arguing (not that you're necessarily arguing with me).

For me the key difference is that enemy vehicles are not allowed to enter the space occupied by a land speeder at all--except by ramming, which only works 1/3 of the time. That same vehicle will just tankshock over an attack bike (whether the bike passes its leadership test or not). So in the age of mech, a speeder is much more effective at interdicting enemy movement, which is the one qualitative advantage that sets them apart from attack bikes.

**Sanctjud**

You are correct in the 'not arguing with' you part...was just throwing it out there.

Each are awesome...they are apples and oranges though and I feel it more of a personal taste issue.

Using speeders as impassible terrain is very powerful when you want to save your infantry, block enemy movement etc. etc, it's been gone over and is full of awesome sauce...though it's not my cup of tea, mostly because I have no other Armor Saturation available and I run an all biker list

Biased, I am

.

At the same time, bikers are so fast they can somewhat forgo shooting and charge into those non-combat squads...squads like Devs, Lootas, Sniper-like squads to shut them down a turn or even kill them...as the biker stats help alot.

**rdlb**

No heavy flamer available on an attack bike, a speedy flamer is such a good deal.

I play with a lot of big terrain pieces and the speeder can just ignore these...priceless

**Mr. DK**

@Volkan: The list I'm going for is a jump pack Blood Angel Force, everything is very mobile thats why my support units are between Speeders and Bikes..

Thanks for all the advice guys I think I'm going to lean towards speeders because they can soften up infantry before I assault with their HF and also take out tanks with MM. In Shooting, str 4 guns will glance on 6s vs 5's for bikes, and in an assault, str 4 units will glance on 6's, and I can just move next turn and continue firing.

thanks!

**Volkan**

On the subject of tank shock and bikes I usually don't mind that too often, In that case I would probably attempt the Death or Glory with the Multimelta on the Bike. Its not guaranteed but The Melta rule combined with guaranteed hit is pretty nice. I would probably think twice against a wave serpent or something with holoshields.

But yea i think either will work well enough. And they do share the ability to go over terrain with the jump packs.

Cheers,
~Volkan

**MekanobSamael**

LS can also mount extra guns, which means that you can pack 6 heavy bolters into a 180-point squad, which means they solidly outclass attack bikes at all ranges. Or for 210 points, you could have 3 MM and 3 HB, which is a little pricy but keeps all you bases covered.

**Volkan**

Don't discout that the bikes come with TL Bolters and while they have a reduced range they can move 12 inches and still fire everything at full effect. The speeders can only hop 6 if you wanted to shoot the compliment. 3 Attack Bikes with Multimeltas also only weigh in at 150 points. They are more economical.

Cheers,
~Volkan

**Sanctjud**

@MekanobSamael:
The issue is then they get expensive real quick, where as the lack of options on bikers keeps them cheap and easily applied.

**Grey Templar**

Volkan wrote:Don't discout that the bikes come with TL Bolters and while they have a reduced range they can move 12 inches and still fire everything at full effect. The speeders can only hop 6 if you wanted to shoot the compliment. 3 Attack Bikes with Multimeltas also only weigh in at 150 points. They are more economical.

Cheers,
~Volkan

speeders can move 12" and fire all guns as they are both Fast and Skimmers

**unbeliever87**

Grey Templar wrote:speeders can move 12" and fire all guns as they are both Fast and Skimmers

*looks around awkwardly* No they can't...unless they have defensive weapons ofcourse.

I run a Vulkan list. MM/HF Land Speeders are fantastic, they threated both Mech and Horde and can be very annoying to kill with their maneuverability. As I've said many times before, I don't like Attack bikes because you have to jump through too many hoops to get their 3+ cover save.

**Demogerg**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
tedurur wrote:Not to mention that the Speeders can block the path of a LR carrying TH/SS and similar death star units.

QFT. Park a speeder 1" in front of a transport like a land raider or battlewagon, and the vehicle is basically stuck for at least one turn while it backs up and drives around. If it tries to ram, you get your 3+ skimmer save. Pass, and the vehicle is stuck there for another turn. Vehicles can just roll over bikes.

A speeder can also pin down hardcore assault units like genestealers or hormagaunts. Move 7"+ and flame them, they need 6's to hit you in assault and 6's to damage. Zoom up on an objective held by guys with bolters in the last turn, and there's a good chance they're not going to be able to hurt you. A bike in that situation would just get assaulted and wiped out.

Comparing points values and weapon loadouts, bikes and speeders are about equal. But because they're vehicles, speeders can interdict movement in a way bikes never could.

I dont have my rulebook handy, but I thought if a skimmer passes its save vs a ram the tank moves right through it as if it wasn't there...

**Steelmage99**

Nope. The vehicle stops with the crew "looking confused".

**Grey Templar**

i do think it should be what Demogerg said.

the orks are not going to stop looking confused, they will probably just keep going.

after all thats what would happen if the vehicle exploded.

**Steelmage99**

Be that as it may.

The Orks WILL stop their ram immediately, and look "confused and disappointed" (the last part is quoted from the rules on page 71).

**JSK-Fox**

Yeo, also, the rule book, despite saying that fast skimmers can go 24", says nothing about them being able to go 6" extra with all weapons balzing.

**schadenfreude**

The OP is building a BA army, so the answer is attack bikes.
Attack bikes are very durable in a BA army.

Attack bikes can gain FNP if they are within 6" of a sanguinary priest, and can easily gain a 4+ cover save for friendly units being between the attack bike and enemy units. High str shots like autocannons, multilasers, and hive guard will have a very difficult time getting past a 3+ armor save and FNP, and hist str high AP shots like missiles, plasma, and lascannons still have to get past a cover save.

Normally it's a hard debate between land speeders and attack bikes, but in an army with FNP the debate tilts heavily towards attack bikes.

**Mr. DK**

@schadenfreude: Very true, but things str 8 will negate the FNP and if the armour save is failed it will be an instant death...

**Sanctjud**

That str 8 directed at the Attack Bikes is not going to:
Razorbacks, Rhinos, Dreads of all kinds, StormRaven, Baals, Preds, Vindis.

It's still target saturation but steps on the grounds of Armor Saturation...pretty big difference IMO, well worth it as a target of str 8 weaponry...just keep some sort of cover on them until they commit.