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*UPDATE* New Rhino Upgrade! Updated Preds further down! 8)
(Added the Updated Predators)(humm I guess its to many words will make a new post then) Scroll down for Preds
(Added the Land Raider thread to this one)

During their long exile the forces of Chaos have had to rebuild and remake equipment over and over again. No longer held to the superstitious and mystical ways of the Mechanicus, the forces of Chaos have remolded the ubiquitous rhino to fit their own tastes.

Chaos Rhino: vehicle (tank) 35 points
BS: 4 FA: 11 SA: 11 RA: 10, searchlight, smoke, Twin-linked bolter
Access points: 3
Firing Points:1

-May have one of the following-
Combi-flamer, Combi-melta, Combi-plasma at 10 points
Havoc launcher at 15 points
Twin linked bolter at 5 points

-Options-
Daemonic Possession at 20 points
Dirge Caster at 5 points
Dozer Blade at 5 points
Extra Armor at 15 points
Heavy Plating at 10 points*
Onslaught at 15 points**
Tormenter at 35 points ***
Desolation Carrier at 15 points****
Flattop at 20 points*****

*Heavy Plating- A Rhino with Heavy Plating may add 1 point of armor to its front armor value. It may not be taken with the Onslaught upgrade.

**Onslaught - the Rhino has been redesigned with the driver and engines in back so an assault ramp may be added to the front. Passengers exiting the vehicle may assault the round they disembark. Access points for this rhino is reduced to 1(the large assault ramp on the front). Onslaught Pattern Rhinos may upgrade their twin-linked bolter to a Flamer for free. It may not be used with the Tormenter upgrade or the Heavy Plating upgrade. The Onslaught upgrade also removes its firing point.

*** Tormenter-The Rhino replaces it’s firing point and twin-linked bolter with a twin linked (2) reaper auto cannon turret. Passenger capacity is reduced to 6.
Tormenter, 36” range S: 7 AP: 4 Heavy: 4 Linked.

**** Desolation Carrier -The Rhino has been consecrated with blood sacrifices, chaos runes and packed with explosives. At any point during the player’s round, he may detonate the vehicle.
Range: 2d6 S: 5 AP: 4 Pinning.
Any Unit suffering wounds from the detonation must make a pinning test.
If a Rhino with the Desolation Carrier upgrade is struck with a penetrating shot it may explode prematurely on a roll of 6 on a D6. It will automaticly explode with this profile on any "vehicle explodes" result.

*****Flattop-Any rhino given this upgrade becomes open topped and can increase its pasenger capacity to 12. The Flat top can not add any additional weapons due to its now very limited driver and control space. Lightweight- Flattop Rhinos gain one extra inch of movement.

A Flattop Rhino may take the Heavy Plating and or the Desolation Carrier options.
If the Desolation carrier option is taken the vehicle now must test for premature explosion on any glancing or penitrating hit. A roll of 5 or 6 on a D6 causes the rhino to explode early(use the weapon profile found under Desolation Carrier. The Flattop Rhinos troop capacity is also reduced back to 10. If the "Flattop" takes the "Heavy Plating" upgrade it loses it extra 1" movement bonus.
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Okay so now we have some real flexibility and uniqueness added to the sort of plain-Jane chaos rhinos.
I don’t think any of these are two powerful unless you mix almost all of them together. To do that though you will be paying out the nose points wise for a still pretty easily destroyed vehicle.
Let me know what you think.

(damm me and my inablity to spell vehicle, plus added to Desolation Carrier rules)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chaos Land Raider Reaper

Points cost: 210
Unit type: Vehicle (tank)
Transport Capacity: 12
Access Points: 3
BS:4 FA:14 SA:14 RA:14
Searchlight, smoke, twin-linked heavy bolters, 2 reaper auto cannons(one per side)

-May have one of the following-
Combi-flamer, Combi-melta, Combi-plasma at 10 points
Havoc Launcher at 15 points
Twin-linked bolter at 5 points

-Options-
May replace the twin linked Heavy Bolters for Twin linked Heavy flamers for free.
Dirge caster at 5 points
Dozer blade at 5 points
Extra armor at 15 points
Daemonic Possession at 20 points*

* If demonically possessed the Land Raider may upgrade its twin-linked heavy bolters to a Malice Gun.
Malice Gun-20 points- 24” range, S6 AP3, Assault 4, Ignore Cover.

Malice Gun-The Daemon possessing the vehicle creates a gun from its own flesh, that shoots bursts of its own warp essence. These blasts of warp material, twist and rend the very fabric of reality. Targets struck by this gun are warped and mutated, bones snap and armor is torn apart.
During play if the Malice Gun rolls triples on its dice roll to hit, (ie three 6's, three 2', etc) The gun will cease to function for the remainder of the game as the Deamon has used to much of his essence to fuel its voracious ammo needs.
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During the last War for Armageddon, Chaos forces were hard pressed to fix damaged vehicles. Skull Lord Zashtul told his Dark Magos to rip out the ruined systems and give him a tank that could get him back into battle. The Dark Magos stripped the broken lascannons and power generators from the shattered machine, then he attached an armored cupola in place of one of the top hatches, knowing his lord would want as much fire power as he could get. He also welded platforms on two of the doors allowing troops inside to ride on them shooting at the enemy as they move across the battle field. Soon other Cohorts of Berzerkers were doing the same to their Land Raiders.

Chaos Land Raider Armageddon

Points cost: 200
Unit type: Vehicle (tank)
Transport Capacity: 16
Access Points: 5 (one front assaut ramp, two doors per side)
BS:4 FA:14 SA:14 RA:14
Searchlight, smoke, twin-linked heavy bolters, turret mounted Reaper Autocannon(1).

-May have one of the following-
Combi-flamer at 10 points
Twin-linked bolter at 5 points

-Options-
May replace the Twin linked Heavy Bolters with Twin linked Heavy Flamers for free
Dirge caster at 5 points
Dozer blade at 5 points
Extra armor at 15 points
Firing Platforms at 20 points for 4*
Daemonic Possession at 20 points**

* Firing platforms-upgrade all of its access points to four fire points, two on each side of the LR. Models may still use the platforms as access points. Land Raider Armageddon's do not count as open toped. Model's firing from the platforms do not block line of sight for other members of their unit of attached IC's. Each platform must be models directly below the access doors in the standared LR kit. Units using the platforms must adhear to all basic rules from BRB and C:CSM(ie unit must fire at the same target). Each platform has a 180 dregree line of sight from the access door it is attached too.


* If demonically possessed the Land Raider may upgrade its twin-linked heavy bolters to a Malice Gun.
Malice Gun-20 points- 24” range, S6 AP3, Assault 4, Ignore Cover.

Malice Gun-The Daemon possessing the vehicle creates a gun from its own flesh, that shoots bursts of its own warp essence. These blobs of warp material, twist and rend the very fabric of reality. Targets struck by this gun are warped and mutated, bones snap and armor is shredded.
During play if the Malice Gun rolls triples on its dice roll to hit, (ie three 6's, three 2', etc) The gun will cease to function for the remainder of the game as the Deamon has used to much of his essence to fuel its voracious ammo needs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Okay so this gives Chaos players some added flexibility without being to overpowering, I think. Also I think we need more of our own versions of things. Plus it might be fun to kit bash these out.

Points were dropped due to no PotMS or Frag launchers or sponson weapons in the case of the LR Armageddon. Plus I took away the heavy vehicle killing power, I did this because to me a Chaos LR isn't a sit and shoot tank, it's a hard charging ,get to the enemy and gut him like a guardsmen, tank. So I reflected that in the weapon choices. If you want the las killy power you can take a standard LR.

The LR Armageddon was intentionally given few weapon options seeing as how the forces of Chaos are stripping out basic LR's to make them, so to me, adding lots of added weapon options just didn’t fit.
Standard troop capacities, 2 marines = 1 termie etc. All basic restrictions apply, no Obis, no Spawn etc.
I did play test the Malice Gun out a bit but it could use a real play test with a real opponent.

Let me know what you think.

*Update 4/4/10*
I changed the fluff and added a detrament to the Malice Gun. The fluff fits better I think and with the possible loss of the gun, I now think that the point cost is more justified.

*Update 10/21/10
Changed the Land Raiders a bit.

I think I like the Desolation carrier upgrade. Seems like something unstable and bitter renegades would come up with.

Not too powerful either. I would play it with a penetrating hit exploding it on a 4,5,6 roll just for added spice! (playing IG do I melt it? Do I use ranged artillery? or do I let it get to my lines?) Fun all the way!!!!

Okay what about on any penetrating hit it may explode prematurly on a D6 roll of 6 or explodes automaticly on a vehicle explodes result.

This is good and all but in the future if you could post your Chaos Vehicle updates in your original thread, that would be awesome.

The Tormenter is really good but expensive!

The Tormenter actually isnt that expensive. Its 5 points cheeper than the razorback with Assault Cannons. It will get expensive if you keep adding more and more to it.
Mabye I will think of a diffrent basic gun for it with the upgrade the reapers. I made it a new thread because I was wanting them to be seen on their own merits. I guess I could combine them.

Don't forget the 40 point Assault Ramp If orks get boarding planks...

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Don't forget the 40 point Assault Ramp If orks get boarding planks...

Im sorry.. what do you mean?

All in all excellent variants. The Tormentor-Pattern Rhino is a particularly interesting variant (basically the CSM version of the Razorback), but I think that at 70 points, it's a little cheap for it's power. Remember, it shoots twice as far as the assault cannon, and hits a little harder, and all it loses by comparison is the Rending USR, which on a strength 6 weapon isn't all that thrilling to begin with. I'd say bump it up maybe another 10 or 15 points.

Nice varients, but a quick question:

How does the desolation upgrade work with the transported troops? does the rhino sacrifice this capacity?

I gotta say i love it. Its great to see something that distinguishes Chaos Marines from their loyalist foes.

I like heavy plating, really flows well with chaos and their rush forward tactics. However i think 15 points is a more fair price on this.

Onslaught again flows well with chaos and has good justification. Tho for 50 points this might be too cheap. Especially considering blood angels, their standard rhinos are 50 points. Maybe 20 or 25 point upgrade?

Tormenter, i definitely think this is needed. And i dont think its overpowered. Chaos has a big lack of useable shooting units. And i think tormenter rhinos would be a good way to fill the gap.

Desolation Carrier is definetly chaos. A big rolling bomb, but its their own vehicle. Just perfect if you ask me.

MekanobSamael wrote:All in all excellent variants. The Tormentor-Pattern Rhino is a particularly interesting variant (basically the CSM version of the Razorback), but I think that at 70 points, it's a little cheap for it's power. Remember, it shoots twice as far as the assault cannon, and hits a little harder, and all it loses by comparison is the Rending USR, which on a strength 6 weapon isn't all that thrilling to begin with. I'd say bump it up maybe another 10 or 15 points.

Okay I cant seem to work out how to multi-quote so I will awnser all these questions sepratly I guess. (Whooty I awnsered them all fast enought it bunched them all together for me!)

First, I know the Tormenter is a little on the cheep side. I justify this (at least to myself) by saying that it is a easliy killed vehicle plus the first weapon destroyed result will pop the cannon. Since Chaos has so few non-marked individual guns, I feel the reapers are perfect for this roll. I know between the "Tormenter" and the LandRaiders from my other post, I am spamming Reaper cannons a bit. But there arent too many Chaos iconic weapons. I did think about if a marked squad (not a icon holding one, so basicly Noise marines and T-Sons) could upgrade their Rhinos with their spesific weapon load outs. So a "Tormenter" with a Blastmaster or loaded with "Inferno Bolts", but I thought that might be really pushing the OP button, plus Zerk's and Plauge Marines get left out.
Plus Chaos forces could use a bit of a points break on some stuff. Hell look at the Blood Angles Assault squads dedicated transports they cost 20 points, making a twinlinked assault cannon armed one 55. Not that to many BA players will use the Assault Cannons, they will spam the hell out of Laz/Plaz ones and they are still only 55 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slarg232 wrote:Nice varients, but a quick question:

How does the desolation upgrade work with the transported troops? does the rhino sacrifice this capacity?

No it dosent sacrifice transport capability. So you can have a squad of 10 guys(or less) riding around in a rolling Bomb. I personaly liked the Idea and thought it was good and Chaosy, a Suicide Squad leaping out to attack while their ride drove off to blow up some stuff.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrwittwer wrote:I gotta say i love it. Its great to see something that distinguishes Chaos Marines from their loyalist foes.

I like heavy plating, really flows well with chaos and their rush forward tactics. However i think 15 points is a more fair price on this.

Onslaught again flows well with chaos and has good justification. Tho for 50 points this might be too cheap. Especially considering blood angels, their standard rhinos are 50 points. Maybe 20 or 25 point upgrade?

I think 10 points for a single armor value upgrade is fair. The rhino is still weakish on sides and back. Plus since it cant be used with the "Onslaught" upgrade, I feel it isnt to OP.

The "Onslaught" upgrade I think is a fair price to pay since you cant use "Heavy Plating" or the "Tormenter" upgrades. This I think seriously limits its use to only squads that are really worth assaulting with ( So basicly just Berzerkers or Chosen {but who the hell ever uses Chosen}). On the other hand reading about people and their "Leafblower", "WolfMech", "LazPlaz" spam armys, I can see why this may be pointed up a bit more. Let me think about it a little.. Fair enough?

8-)

Ohh BTW thanks for all the imput guys, I do appreciate it.

(edited some spelling)
(Edit for clarity)

Love it, if only it were Codex!

Nicorex wrote:
First, I know the Tormenter is a little on the cheep side. I justify this (at least to myself) by saying that it is a easliy killed vehicle plus the first weapon destroyed result will pop the cannon. Since Chaos has so few non-marked individual guns, I feel the reapers are perfect for this roll. I know between the "Tormenter" and the LandRaiders from my other post, I am spamming Reaper cannons a bit. But there arent too many Chaos iconic weapons. I did think about if a marked squad (not a icon holding one, so basicly Noise marines and T-Sons) could upgrade their Rhinos with their spesific weapon load outs. So a "Tormenter" with a Blastmaster or loaded with "Inferno Bolts", but I thought that might be really pushing the OP button, plus Zerk's and Plauge Marines get left out.
Plus Chaos forces could use a bit of a points break on some stuff. Hell look at the Blood Angles Assault squads dedicated transports they cost 20 points, making a twinlinked assault cannon armed one 55. Not that to many BA players will use the Assault Cannons, they will spam the hell out of Laz/Plaz ones and they are still only 55 points.

I love that idea. Just love it! Maybe Plague marines could have som kind of smaller pus cannon, or something like Fabius' Xyclos Needler (but bigger). Zerkers iconic weapon are the chainaxe. Doesn't really fit as a gun.

The Khornite version could give Rhinos a deff rolla style weapon.

Norade wrote:The Khornite version could give Rhinos a deff rolla style weapon.

Had that already in a older codex.


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Saintspirit wrote:
I love that idea. Just love it! Maybe Plague marines could have som kind of smaller pus cannon, or something like Fabius' Xyclos Needler (but bigger). Zerkers iconic weapon are the chainaxe. Doesn't really fit as a gun.

I am trying not to go overboard with made up weapons. One of the reasons I think Chaos players lost so much of our flexability from the last Codex, is because we had so many options, other players didnt always understand what we were putting on the table.

I also am trying to think realisticly, based on the newer Codex's, what options should be.

So basicly I am trying to sprinkle some Chaos Flavor on our bland boiled potato of a codex.

Okay since we seem to be talking about points values, I did a little comparative building. I know this isnt perfect but I did the best I could
We will start with some basic troops comparasins between C:CSM and C:SM. I tried to match the squads build for each.
I am using the C:SM Twin-Laz Razorback for these examples, since it is the better comparison to the "Tormenter".

Basic Squads Comparison.

Basic CSM 9 + AspChamp, flamer, missle launcher, powerfist 205
+ Tormenter Rhino = 275 (squad cannot ride in this due to lack of comabt squads, but it can be mobile gun platform, running and gunning across the board)

Basic SM 9 + Sarge, flamer, missle launcher, powerfist 195
+ Razorback with Twin Laz = 270, Unit can take full advantage of this vehicle, once it combat squads.

Okay this is pretty good example I think. Im still 5 points more expensive and am not as flexiable with my units dedicated transport. If I was using this C:CSM unit I would plant them and send the Tormenter off to contest objectives.

Okay So now lets make 2 C:CSM squads that can ride in it.
Not the best squad chioces, but I think a fair representation.

5 Plauge Marines + Champ, 2 meltaguns, powerfist, + Tormenter= 268

5 CSM +AspChamp, flamer, powerfist + Tormenter = 205

or I can go whole hog and use this squad

5 Noise Marines + AspChamp, 5x sonicblasters, blastmaster, doom siren, powerweapon, + Tormenter + 300
WOW thats a expensive squad right there. Lots of firepower though.

Now a basic C:SM squad

4 Marines + Sarge, powerfist, razorback with twin Laz = 190

Not a huge diffrence between basic CSM and SM but thats an almost 80 point jump when using PM's.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay there were some basic numbers comparing C:SM and C:CSM squads using the razorback vs my Tormenter.
As you can see SM's end up on the cheeper side of all comparisons. Hell my first Basic CSM squad cant even ride in the darn thing.
Looking at the PM riding around in it has a huge points jump, you can say "Well sure but they are PM's and they are great and have uber special rules, thats why they are some expensive.". I agree totaly with that thinking, thats why to me the "Tormenter" is well pointed. Effective use vs points cost.

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Now lets do a Apples to Apples comparison (well as close as you can get).
BA Assualt squad to Berzerkers
I used plasmapistols in this example because its the only weapon both squad have acces too.

BA ASx4 with sarge, +15 pp ,+25 powerfist ,+55laz razorback =195

Zerkers x4 with AspChamp, +15 pp, +25 powerfist, + Tormenter = 230

I really dont see a problem with my points values. BA's get more squad weapon options, sarge gets more options
and they are cheeper. The BA AS then can possibly get Feerless and Furious charge for free, basicly making them Zerkers for 35 points cheeper(in this example).

If you have a better idea(or better math ) let me know.


(edited some spelling, and a bad math job)

I like where you are going with this but some things I think are a bit to powerful.

Three big things for me

The 16 capacity landraider for 50 points less then the crusader when specifically the crusader was just recently discovered is a little too much IMO. Especially when combining it with the firing platform upgrade. I like the idea of it allowing someone to shoot from it but not count as open topped. However, being able to assault without getting locked in combat is incredibly overpowered. Not the idea itself but the with players abusing it. Think about this I have abbadon in the landraider jsut him. He has that upgrade so he can basically attack anything withotu impunity becuase he can't get locked in combat.

2nd thing, assault rhinos from the front for 50 points is to cheap especially when combined withthe combi melta upgrade. I move up disembark blow up your transport with melta then charge with 10 khorne berserkers. My suggestions for this is give it some disadvantage. Something along the lines of it becomes opentopped or you lose the side exits as everyone crams to the front to get out. Also I'd say that this would be an upgrade only for units withthe mark of khorne.

Just like the heavy armor upgrade should only be for Iron warriors or maybe call it something different from nurgle worshipers.

I'm not sure if you are trying to work things into the current dex or are these ideas for a future one. I just see so much min maxing these days which is why I have this apprihension.

Also one last question. Is the Tormentor upgrade two twin linked reaper cannons or a single double twin linked (heavy 4 reaper) Just so if you get a weapon destroyed result doesi t destroy it all or just one.

dumplingman wrote:I like where you are going with this but some things I think are a bit to powerful.

Three big things for me

The 16 capacity landraider for 50 points less then the crusader when specifically the crusader was just recently discovered is a little too much IMO. Especially when combining it with the firing platform upgrade. I like the idea of it allowing someone to shoot from it but not count as open topped. However, being able to assault without getting locked in combat is incredibly overpowered. Not the idea itself but the with players abusing it. Think about this I have abbadon in the landraider jsut him. He has that upgrade so he can basically attack anything withotu impunity becuase he can't get locked in combat.

First of all it is not a crusader, a crusader has hurricane bolters, assault cannon and fraglaunchers, this Raider has none of that.
Okay using some sloppy reasoning and bad assumptions. I tried to figure out the points value of the Crusader upgrades. Using the razorback, twin assault cannons cost 35 points, using the new BA codex, hurricane bolters cost 30 (for 2) and the only thing that compaiers to frag launchers is the ven dread assault launchers at 15 so thats a total of 80 points. Leaving a stripped raider costing 170 points. My Raider is still more expensive than that. Yes I know GW seems to fudge the points cost of things with every single new unit that uses the same weapons but its the only refrence I have.

The idea isnt to create a new raider but Chaos forces have stripped out a old raider, so it can carry more passengers. that is why it only has a single big gun(the reaper cannon) upgrade. I can see your point about not being locked in combat. I admit I didnt think that all the way through. There is precedence for this though on a Ork truck with boarding plank. Yes Addy doing is a bit more powerful. I did put in that the attacker could be attacked back by any single model within two inches. I guess that might not be enough. I will give it some thought. It dosesnt count as open topped becdause all marine veichles dont count as open topped when marines inside fire out of it from firing points.

dumplingman wrote:
2nd thing, assault rhinos from the front for 50 points is to cheap especially when combined withthe combi melta upgrade. I move up disembark blow up your transport with melta then charge with 10 khorne berserkers. My suggestions for this is give it some disadvantage. Something along the lines of it becomes opentopped or you lose the side exits as everyone crams to the front to get out. Also I'd say that this would be an upgrade only for units withthe mark of khorne.

I think it is pretty fair, especialy since the combi-melta only gets a single shot. Hey at least I didnt go insane and make it "fast". hahahaha

dumplingman wrote:
Just like the heavy armor upgrade should only be for Iron warriors or maybe call it something different from nurgle worshipers.

To bad there is no such army called "Iron Warriors" according to C:CSM....... (Can you tell that I really hate that they took away all our Fluff stuff?)

dumplingman wrote:
I'm not sure if you are trying to work things into the current dex or are these ideas for a future one. I just see so much min maxing these days which is why I have this apprihension.

Also one last question. Is the Tormentor upgrade two twin linked reaper cannons or a single double twin linked (heavy 4 reaper) Just so if you get a weapon destroyed result doesi t destroy it all or just one.

My thinking right now (Unless GW gives me a call and askes me to write the new Chaos Dex), is that these are for the current version of C:CSM. I understand your apprehension. I am trying to come up with ideas that are not to powerful, but still give us some uneqie (sp?) and hopefully fun rides to play with.

The Tormenter upgrade is basicly a razorback, so yes the first weapon destroyed hit it takes you lose the gun. This is one of the reasons I didnt make it more expensive.

Thanks for your imput.. I will give some more thought to the fireing platforms.

I can see alot of thought and design has went into these proposed rules. Also it is good to see that none of the rules are overpowered or overpriced. I like the compact nature of the rules. Essentially this is what the current Chaos dex lacks. While I don't hope for a reversion to 3.5 in the next Chaos codex, I hope the next dex has alot of extra compact rules such as these in order to make alternate builds more viable.

Personally I like the idea of the Armageddon (My assault spec army thanks you). Maybe the single model assault capability is a little too good. Maybe leave that function out and balance the vehicle from there.

Well since the assaulting capabilitys now seem to be the most worrisome feature, I will just remove it.

How about this instead?

Firing Platforms: 20 points. With this upgrade up to 4 models may fire out of the Land Raider, 2 models per side. Each side has a 180 degree firing arch from the modeled platforms(platforms must be modeled directly below the 4 access doors). All shooting attacks must follow standard shooting rules (ie squad must fire at the same target). Models firing from the platforms do not block the line of sight of members of their squad or attached IC's. Land Raider Armageddon's do not count as open topped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

candy.man wrote:I can see alot of thought and design has went into these proposed rules. Also it is good to see that none of the rules are overpowered or overpriced. I like the compact nature of the rules.

Thank you. I am really trying to create something people might actually want to feild without their opponents screaming "CHEESEMONSTER!" at them. Some items may be a tad overpriced and some underpriced. I tried to point everything out, with the consideration of its value on the battlefeild as well as how it will make a unit preform.

Yes I know the Assault Ramp rhino will vastly effect the value of Berzerkers. I also know that it will be a high pryority target for your opponent, so its lenght of time on the battlefeild many be very short and we all hate paying high points for a model we dont even get to use.

Next up... I will see what I can come up with for the Pred. This is reall sketchy though. I am trying not to create to many original weapons. I think its easyer for an opponent to let you use a twinlinked missle launcher than say a Vorachious Maw cannon thats S:9 AP:1 Assault:15 pinning( I have noticed a few fan made weapons like this over the years). So if I can keep it within the scope that every 40K player knows the basic build of the weapon, that is what I will use.

Nicorex wrote:Well since the assaulting capabilitys now seem to be the most worrisome feature, I will just remove it.

How about this instead?

Firing Platforms: 20 points. With this upgrade up to 4 models may fire out of the Land Raider, 2 models per side. Each side has a 180 degree firing arch from the modeled platforms(platforms must be modeled directly below the 4 access doors). All shooting attacks must follow standard shooting rules (ie squad must fire at the same target). Models firing from the platforms do not block the line of sight of members of their squad or attached IC's. Land Raider Armageddon's do not count as open topped.

This looks pretty legit to me. This would allow for special weapons to shoot thus making up for the lack of sponson mounted weapons, while still retaining the large assault raider feel and keeping it balanced. As more often than not, only 2 people would be able to shoot, since it must be at the same target. I assume the same rules for moving and shooting out of a vehicle apply? This would seem really nice for assault weapons like melta guns.

Although this makes me wonder. I cannot recall the rule from the top of my head, but would the units inside be allowed to say move 6" shoot melta guns from the Firing Platform, then disembark and charge?

mrwittwer wrote: As more often than not, only 2 people would be able to shoot, since it must be at the same target. I assume the same rules for moving and shooting out of a vehicle apply? This would seem really nice for assault weapons like melta guns.

Although this makes me wonder. I cannot recall the rule from the top of my head, but would the units inside be allowed to say move 6" shoot melta guns from the Firing Platform, then disembark and charge?

Well all four model could shoot at a the same target directly in front or back if they all can draw line of sight to it. With all my homebrew ideas, you still must follow all the basic rules of the game.

So with that in mind on to your secound question.
No you can not shoot from the LandRaider then exit and assault because all movement takes place before the shooting phase. The Firing Platforms do not give you an additional shooting phase.

Basicly what I was thinking was this. You want to drive your raider up to that Inquisitor, so you can kill him and his retinue, so your deepstrikers can land safely. You might as well get to do a drive-by while you are on your way to your objective. Who knows what juicy targets may stumbe in your path as you head to your desired location.

My bad, i just had a complete brain fart when i wrote that, ignore it.

I do like the rhino rules. might get a house ruling at my local store.
as for the land raiders. I'm content with plain ones.

Over the long years many Dark Mechanicus have had to make hasty repairs and jury-rig jobs to keep some vehicles in the battlefields. Most of these designs have proven to be faulty or even hazardous to their crews.

During the testing of the Predator Incinerator a fire in the tank roasted the crew and the resulting explosion killed 14 bystanders that were there to watch the tests, including Bastul the Immortal, Lord of the 5th Host.

Though a few have worked and have since found their way into the arsenals of most of the Forces of Chaos.

Cleaver Pattern Predator

With massive losses during the 13th Black Crusade, many Dark Mechanius could not repair the intricate laz based systems fast enough. The Cleaver Pattern Predators were created so the vehicles could still fight with the plethora of munitions that were on hand. These Predator tanks lack the defensive gun options since many Chaos lords wanted the specialized weapons in the hands of their troopers, not wasting away bolted to some tank.

Cleaver Pattern Predator: Vehicle (tank) 70 points
BS:4 FA:13 SA:11 RA:10, Searchlight, Smoke, Turret mounted Autocannon.

-Options-
Dirge caster +5
Dozer blade +5
Extra Armor +15
Deamonic Possession +20*
Heavy Plating +30**

Weapons Upgrades
May replace turret auto cannon with twin-linked Missle launcher for +35

May add side sponsons with-
Heavy bolters for +30
Havok Launchers for +30
Reaper autocannons for +50

* If demonically possessed the Land Raider may upgrade its Auto cannon to a Malice Gun.
Malice Gun-30 points- 24” range, S6 AP3, Assault 4, Ignore Cover.
**Heavy Plating upgrade adds 1 point of armor value to the FA of this unit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obliterator Possessed Predator:

Some Deamonicly possessed Predator tanks have intentionaly been infected with the Obliterator Virus. This highly unstable mutation has caused many attempts to fail. Those that have succeeded have proved to be extremely effective.

Obliterator Predator: Vehicle (tank) 165 points
BS:4 FA:13 SA:11 RA:10, Searchlight, Smoke, Daemonic Possession*, Turret mounted Obliterator Gun** Secrets of the Dark Mechanicus **** Calling of the Warp*****

-Options-
Dozer blade +5
Dirge Caster +5

May add side sponsons with-
Obliterator assault guns +55***

Special Rules
*Deamonic Possession: may not take Malice Gun upgrade. The Obliterator virus increases the daemons BS by 1
**Obliterator Turret: This weapon mount may chose any of the weapons from the Obliterator weapons list each shooting phase.
***Obliterator Assault gun sponsons can choose each round to fire either, twin-linked meltaguns, twin-linked flamers or twin-linked plasmaguns. (Obliterator sponsons do not get heavy weapon choices)( a single gun option is chosen each round for both sponsons).
****Secrets of the Dark Mechanicus: Limited availability. You may only take a single Obliterator Predator if your army already includes one or more units of Obliterators. (one per army)
*****Calling of the Warp: The infected Daemon yearns to be free; Force Weapons are +1 strength and add +1 to rolls for penetration against the Obliterator Predator, as the daemon uses the direct connection to the warp to escape its bonds.
Obliterator Predators ignore the “Gets Hot” rule.


Okay so there are some Chaosy Preds for you all.
Let me know what you think about them.
All basic rules from BRB and C:CSM apply in addition to my added rules or options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sveinn Shieldsbane wrote:I do like the rhino rules. might get a house ruling at my local store.
as for the land raiders. I'm content with plain ones.

Please do try them out and let me know how they worked. I have just been playtesting here by myself. PEW PEW!! hahaha Ohh and I wouldnt mind if you give me credit for them if you do.

I can understand your contentment with the vanilla LR. Look at it this way, your dad gives you a car, just a plain old car he has given to both your brothers and you. You keep this car for 20 years. Dont you think you might do some work to make that car your own over that time? Mabye repaint it, put in a new stereo, hell jack it up and give it monster truck tires? You know making it fit your taste. That is what I am trying to do. Make our Chaos vehicles fit more into our tastes and not just by adding spikes to a vanilla Vindicator.

mrwittwer wrote:My bad, I just had a complete brain fart when I wrote that, ignore it

LOL no prob. I actually think they were some good questions. There are a lot of silly rules out there these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From reading another post and from my comment from it. I came up with another Rhino upgrade.

Flattop upgrade at 20 points
Any rhino given this upgrade becomes open topped and can increase its pasenger capacity to 12. The Flat top can not add any additional weapons due to its now very limited driver and control space.

A Flattop Rhino may take the Heavy Plating and or the Dessolation Carrier options.
If the Dessolation carrier option is taken the vehicle now must test for premature explosion on any glancing or penitrating hit of a 5 or 6 on a D6. the troop capacity is also reduced back to 10.


Okay now do I allow the flat top to carry Termies? And if I do, should its points go up?

What do you think?

Hi, the new preds could are great. Just a note, Gets Hot Doesn't apply to vehicles according to the 40k rulebook as plasma weapons on vehicles are assumed to have cooling devices that plasma rifles don't.

I think the Oblit Pattern Pred could use some more design work. Personally I reckon an Oblit pattern pred wouldn't be limited/using Oblit infantry weapons. An oblit pattern tank would probably have its own selection of weapons (which would make it easier to balance). Also the cost of the oblit pred could be a bit over inflated due to it having access to a plasma cannon and cost wise players might be more inclined to go with a land raider then the oblit pattern pred

I personally am not a fan of open topped rhinos. While yes it does seem like a good idea for assaults and things of that nature, i would like some kind of entirely new chaos vehicle to incorporate an open topped design. IMO rhinos are armored APC's and for that reason shouldnt be open topped.

The obliterator pattern predator is far to expensive to be viable in a 1500 point game possibly even 2000 point games. While it does incorporate the same versatility that oblits have, its a bare minimum 240 points. This only gives 1 gun to shoot a turn and really isnt worth the points. I would much prefer to take 3 oblits than a 165 point tank that shoots once. To have 3 guns to shoot a turn its 295 points. This is one expensive unit.

As suggested by candy.man, perhaps give the oblit pattern pred its own range of weapons. This way the points could be balanced much easier and the predator can have a more vehicle based role. Perhaps even add some of the more exotic weapons like the one from the leman russ punisher or the malice gun. Im not real creative so i cant help there, just a suggestion.

The trick to making a shooting based vehicle is to balance the points just right so that the vehicle is really worth taking, otherwise it will get looked over by transports or other heavy options. While balance is needed for all units i think it is especially needed for this unit, as i believe its the reason why the current chaos predator is not taken. Its simply not worth the points and there are better options.

Yeah. You would want to give the Oblit tank a good selection of weapons but not too good so that the tank isn't too powerful or overcosted.

Personally I think the choice of weapons should be some classic tank weapons to help emulate that an oblit tank can kind of function like multiple tanks (kind of like how an oblit soldier can function like multiple Havoks/ Devastators). I think Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters and Lascannons should be on the table as choices for the turret and sponsons.

Okay here is my thinking on this. Because Obis only get energy based weapons these days is why I left it all the basic Obi weapons load out. Also I am perposely trying to stay within the C:CSM options. I fear that if I give these vehicles uber weapons and super bizzare load outs, people will just look at them and screem "CHEESE!", so I am trying to avoid that by limiting them.
I also limited the side sponsons because I think a Pred firing 3 plasma cannon shots is a bit over the top.
Since I envision this more as a Assault tank than a stand and shoot one, I think this weapons load out is pretty darn sweet. I can cruise up and blast you with a Plasma cannon and 2 twin linked plasma guns. Or drive up and roast you with 3 twin-linked flamers.

I see your point about it being over pointed due to having to also take a unit of Obi's. So I dropped the price and made it "Fast". I think this offsets the price to usefulness nicely. Now it can zoom around and still shoot.
With its limited avalibility and vulnrability to force weapons, its multiple gun options and speed now balace well. (at least to me )

Candyman, I put the "GetsHot" invulrability notation in there just to be clear. Since Obi's are not imune to its effects.
So here is the new Obi-Pred.


Obliterator Possessed Predator:
Some Deamonicly possessed Predator tanks have intentional been infected with the Obliterator Virus. This highly unstable mutation has caused many attempts to fail. Those that have succeeded have proved to be extremely effective.

Obliterator Predator: Vehicle (tank) 100 points
BS:4 FA:13 SA:11 RA:10, Searchlight, Smoke, Daemonic Possession*, Turret mounted Obliterator Gun** Secrets of the Dark Mechanicus **** Calling of the Warp*****

-Options-
Dozer blade +5
Dirge Caster +5

-May add side sponsons with-
Obliterator assault guns +50***

Special Rules
*Deamonic Possession: ignore stunned/shaken effects, may not take Malice Gun upgrade. The Obliterator virus increases the daemons BS by 1, Tank gains the "Fast" rule.
**Obliterator Turret: This weapon mount may chose any of the weapons from the Obliterator weapons list each shooting phase.
***Obliterator Assault gun sponsons can choose each round to fire either, twin-linked meltaguns, twin-linked flamers or twin-linked plasmaguns. (Obliterator sponsons do not get heavy weapon choices).
****Secrets of the Dark Mechanicus: Limited availability. You may only take a single Obliterator Predator if your army already includes a unit of Obliterators. (one per army)
*****Calling of the Warp: The infected Daemon yearns to be free; Force Weapons are +1 strength and add +1 to rolls for penetration against the Obliterator Predator, as the daemon uses the direct connection to the warp to escape its bonds.
Obliterator Predators ignore the “Gets Hot” rule.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay now for the "Flattop" Rhino carrier.
I was just thinking this was a fun silly idea. Like the forces of chaos have pressed a ammo carrier into front line duty. I was thinking about giving it some kind of "Red ones go faster" rule but like I said before I am trying to stick within the boundrys of C:CSM. I still might do that though.
YOu knwo what.. feth it I will... Off to go change it now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrwittwer wrote:I personally am not a fan of open topped rhinos. While yes it does seem like a good idea for assaults and things of that nature, i would like some kind of entirely new chaos vehicle to incorporate an open topped design. IMO rhinos are armored APC's and for that reason shouldnt be open topped.

I was thnking along the lines of a Rhino based Ammo carrier/utility vehicle that has been pressed into front line service. So it lacks the rear armored troop box. Let me see if I can go find a pic that illistrates what I am thinking.
Ahh here we go.. Think something like this but based on our standared Rhino.



I have an idea how to make one. I just need to go buy a mitre box so I dont screw it up to badly hahaha

Okay so since I was bored I decided a little visual stimulation might help the conversation along.
This is VERY WIP! So please ecuse any moldlines and what nots. I also got a little off killter/angle when i was cutting the top but I think I might have a fix for it so you will not really notice.
The cargo bed is way to small, I know. As is right now it could hold MAX 6 based mini's, so i will add a larger deck to it. I measured out one that will actually hold 12 but it is way to big. I think if I can get 8 on it, it should be fine.

Enjoy

My Worktable with Flattop Rhino


Flattop Rhino


Side Veiw


rear


and with 12 model capacity deck